PsychoNaut
2007-02-17 01:04:31 UTC
Hi all
I notice that Vortigern hasnt been mentioned for a while and I
wondered if there is the possibility that there were two Vortigerns,
amalgamated into one persona by Gildas and Bede and others?
It's always puzzled me, that the entry of the `Saxons' to Thanet is
given as at the time of Gratian Aquantius in English version of
Historia(also in time of Valentinian), but in Irish version as `when
Gratian and Aquitias were consuls of Rome'. There is only one time
when this occured, in 374/75 AD when indeed Gratian and Aquitias were
consuls just before Valentinian became emperor. This would appear to
be the period of Vortigern 1.
Then there is the later dating for another Vortigern in the 420's-
450's. This is impossible for the same Vortigern. So this must be
Vortigern II. ?
The Irish Historia also tells us that Vortigern was given `under the
Romans power over the Criuthnians'. This statement would lead you to
believe that he was governor of the region in between the Roman Walls.
However we know that Cruithians/Pretani/Caledoni/Picts/ were also
based in Ireland and could therefore possibly be the `Irish' Scoti/
Cruithni that ended up in north Wales that Cunedda, later, was called
in to kick out? So Vortigern could have been a local Roman governor of
sorts in Wales? But which Vortigern was this, must be the second as
he's based in Wales or Northen Britain/Valentia and he must have been
appointed before the Romans finaly left, possibly between 398-420.
Vortigern 1 appears to be in charge of the Kentish region, probably on
the Saxon shore, based in one of the forts there and would have to
have been in some form of authority before 374/5. He couldnt have been
a major Roman governor as Dulcitius was Dux and Civilis Vicarius at
this time. He may though have had some authority over the Saxon shore
forts and hence over the Kent and Thanet region.
I have tried looking at a year by year study of the period in Britain
from 350AD to 450AD to see if it would shed any more light on the
subject. Some have said it's possible there were Fedorati troops at
this point (374/5) as Julian I think had subdued the Saxons(northern
Germanic coastal regions peoples - Angles, Frisians, Jutes, Saxons)
and had masacred some who had offered to become Fedorati. Julian also
subdued other Germanic tribes including the Alamanni.
So far I have got up to about 410 in the yearly studies and it does
seem enlightening. I have some tentative identities but was wondering
wether anyone had considered this problem of two possible Vortigerns?
Regards
Danep
I notice that Vortigern hasnt been mentioned for a while and I
wondered if there is the possibility that there were two Vortigerns,
amalgamated into one persona by Gildas and Bede and others?
It's always puzzled me, that the entry of the `Saxons' to Thanet is
given as at the time of Gratian Aquantius in English version of
Historia(also in time of Valentinian), but in Irish version as `when
Gratian and Aquitias were consuls of Rome'. There is only one time
when this occured, in 374/75 AD when indeed Gratian and Aquitias were
consuls just before Valentinian became emperor. This would appear to
be the period of Vortigern 1.
Then there is the later dating for another Vortigern in the 420's-
450's. This is impossible for the same Vortigern. So this must be
Vortigern II. ?
The Irish Historia also tells us that Vortigern was given `under the
Romans power over the Criuthnians'. This statement would lead you to
believe that he was governor of the region in between the Roman Walls.
However we know that Cruithians/Pretani/Caledoni/Picts/ were also
based in Ireland and could therefore possibly be the `Irish' Scoti/
Cruithni that ended up in north Wales that Cunedda, later, was called
in to kick out? So Vortigern could have been a local Roman governor of
sorts in Wales? But which Vortigern was this, must be the second as
he's based in Wales or Northen Britain/Valentia and he must have been
appointed before the Romans finaly left, possibly between 398-420.
Vortigern 1 appears to be in charge of the Kentish region, probably on
the Saxon shore, based in one of the forts there and would have to
have been in some form of authority before 374/5. He couldnt have been
a major Roman governor as Dulcitius was Dux and Civilis Vicarius at
this time. He may though have had some authority over the Saxon shore
forts and hence over the Kent and Thanet region.
I have tried looking at a year by year study of the period in Britain
from 350AD to 450AD to see if it would shed any more light on the
subject. Some have said it's possible there were Fedorati troops at
this point (374/5) as Julian I think had subdued the Saxons(northern
Germanic coastal regions peoples - Angles, Frisians, Jutes, Saxons)
and had masacred some who had offered to become Fedorati. Julian also
subdued other Germanic tribes including the Alamanni.
So far I have got up to about 410 in the yearly studies and it does
seem enlightening. I have some tentative identities but was wondering
wether anyone had considered this problem of two possible Vortigerns?
Regards
Danep