Discussion:
Britain AD: The Real World of Arthur
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Malcolm Martin
2004-09-01 22:39:48 UTC
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For those in the UK, and with a TV or Video

Monday 6 September at 21:00 on Channel 4

Britain AD: The Real World of Arthur

1 of 3. First in a new documentary series that examines the period in
British history between the departure of the Romans and the arrival of the
Anglo Saxons. The programme argues that far from being a time of primitive
barbarism, the period was a vibrant period marked by the cultural
influences of trade with the Middle East and Constantinople

I have forgotten the name of the presenter, but if memory serves me
correctly it is an archaelogist or historian of repute - albeit it one who
does not think that Dumville's strictures about using the name Arthur in
titles apply to TV progtrammes as well as books??? Or, maybe, the marketing
people over-ruled him?

Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK
Malcolm Martin
2004-09-08 22:21:34 UTC
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Dear All

Well, I got to watch the first instalment of this UK Channel 4 programme.
I would think it was a bit slow and basic for most, if not all, of this NG,
but it may get better.

It was presented bty Francis Pryor, a well known Prehistory Archaeologist
(Personal profile at
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/pryor.html)

The first 15 mins was the BIG IDEA, that the received wisdom/history taught
in British schools [ie after the Romans left the lights went out until the
Saxons invaded and wiped out the Britons except those they pushed across to
Wales] about the Dark Ages was WRONG.

The second 15 mins was about the myth of Arthurian Swords - out of a stone
and Excalibur thrown into water - related to historical fact. The 'out of
a stone' being a folk remembrance of the making of a bronze age sword [I
can not remember who first came up with this idea, but I know I have seen
it somewhere else before this] and the throwing of Excalibur into water
being the issue of votive offerings to water spirits, that has lasted in
the UK from earliest times upto current day (coins in a fountain is our
current expression of this). He expanded this part, by looking at finds in
water in the Fenlands (East Britain) where the finds (including swords)
date from prehistoric times to circa 14th Century, and where abbeys appear
to have been built close to relevant spots, with from 14th Century arms and
armour being deposited in the churches or abbeys.

[The issue he did not tackle at this point - but see next paragraph - was
that this was fairly early Saxon land - Nor(th)folk, - and for those who
follow Morris, the Fenland he was looking at was on the River Witham, which
Morris equates with Dubglas of the Twelve Battles]

From this continuity of custom he drew the conclusion that the
'Saxon/Angles/Jute Invasion' of the 5th Century was more of a replacement
of the ruling elite, with the majority of people continuing to live, and
serve their water-spirits, in the same way as before.

The third 15 mins was suggeting, in effect, that a similar effect could be
seen prior to the Roman AD43 Invasion, with the local Kings/elite adopting
Roman ways, and then Verica of the Atrebates inviting the Romans in, to
support him against other tribes; that Fishbourne was built as a palace for
Verica or his son - ie the Romanisation (read civilisation) of Celtic
Britain rather than Roman subjugation of them.

The fourth 15 mins continued this theme - that the indigenous people
survived from pre-historic times, through Roman times and in the process
the elite took on Romanisation to a significant effect, with villas like
Chedworth being Romanised Brits (complete with sacred spring - shown lined
with current day coins!!) rather than the abodes of Roman immigrants, and
that Britain was an essential part of the Roman Empire rather than a pimple
on its backside (my words, not Pryor's). And that when the legions left,
the Romanised Brits were left in control, although they retreated from
their villas to re-occupying the hillforts (eg Cadbury). [No real mention
yet of rebellious Emperors -apart from Constantine the Great -, Honorius's
Rescript or Zosimus or, indeed, Viriconium, but these may come next week.]

I am away for the next couple of Mondays, so will not see the next two
instalments until my return. But I do hope they have a few more sources
(please, just a few more - I realise this is meant to be popular TV) and at
least mention the counter arguments. As aways there is a 'book of the
series' - which I shall get on my return to see if it has any other,
fuller? information, arguments.


Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK
David Adrien Tanguay
2004-09-09 21:41:56 UTC
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Post by Malcolm Martin
From this continuity of custom he drew the conclusion that the
'Saxon/Angles/Jute Invasion' of the 5th Century was more of a replacement
of the ruling elite, [...]
Didn't the genetic evidence (DNA mapping) say the same thing? I have a vague
memory of reading about it: all the historic invasions of Britain (Celtic,
Roman, Saxon, Viking, Norman/French) surprisingly had only a small effect on
the British gene pool (or, much smaller than historians had thought). Sorry
I can't remember a source.
--
David Tanguay http://www.sentex.ca/~datanguayh/
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.24N 80.29W]
Falca
2004-09-10 15:54:44 UTC
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You've obviously read some recent sources, but some of what Pryor's
saying will come as news to some of the viewers. Indeed some of it
won't be popular, but what Pryor is presenting is (in the main, but
with some of his prehistory ideas chucked in) current archaeological
thought, which tends not to take hold as a general concept until about
twenty years after it's first mooted! So far, he's not mentioned the
science side, but he's got a couple more episodes to go yet. However,
he's not obliged to go to the DNA side of things, and may not use it
as part of his 'argument'

I thought the first episode was quite slow, and hope the other two
will be a bit more dynamic. Some archaeologists are complaining about
it, but I think they're not the target audience anyway, and shouldn't
be moaning.

Falca
Post by David Adrien Tanguay
Post by Malcolm Martin
From this continuity of custom he drew the conclusion that the
'Saxon/Angles/Jute Invasion' of the 5th Century was more of a replacement
of the ruling elite, [...]
Didn't the genetic evidence (DNA mapping) say the same thing? I have a vague
memory of reading about it: all the historic invasions of Britain (Celtic,
Roman, Saxon, Viking, Norman/French) surprisingly had only a small effect on
the British gene pool (or, much smaller than historians had thought). Sorry
I can't remember a source.
Mark Gamon
2004-09-19 12:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Can anybody fill me in on the genetic evidence? What conclusions have
been drawn, and where can I read more?

Thanks

Mark
Falca
2004-09-19 19:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Gamon
Can anybody fill me in on the genetic evidence? What conclusions have
been drawn, and where can I read more?
This may be of some interest:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/9/5078

There is also more general information here:

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3514756.stm

I'd be surprised if West Heslerton didn't appear in tomorrow's programme!

This is also helpful, and has a reference you can chase:

http://www.scotland.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=15745

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