Discussion:
King Arthur the Movie: my how we laughed
(too old to reply)
Mark Gamon
2004-09-18 13:44:11 UTC
Permalink
This has been posted elsewhere but I've only just stumbled across this
newsgroup, courtesy the King Arthur Books website.

First, upfront, an admission. I've got a vested interest, having just
written and produced my own fiction on this subject. See the King
Arthur website list if you're curious, but I'm not here to advertise.
Not in a big way, anyway. I know the film was fiction so it's a little
harsh of me to snipe at someone else's fiction about the same. But but
but...

To the Broadway Cinema, Letchworth, yesterday, with the Bechstein.
There to view the Touchstone blockbuster 'King Arthur'. Reportedly the
subject of detailed research: ‘the untold true story which inspired
the legend'. The first film about Arthur that places him in the Dark
Ages – around the time the Romans were leaving Britain, no less.

A must-see, really, if you've just written a book that attempts to do
the same thing. So let's compare notes…

I know: movies are about story-telling, not historical accuracy. The
same as novels. ‘Arthur was a Roman general' probably seemed enough
when the idea was first pitched to Touchstone. Brilliant. Original.
And hey – it ties in with the archaeology, right? We can use that…

Then the script development starts. Someone – writer, producer, or
whoever stumped up the production money – gets hold of Howard Reid's
‘Arthur the Dragon King', which casts Arthur as a mercenary warrior
from the steppes of Asia. Interesting book, plausibly argued, but
looks just a tad shaky when you stack it up against the wealth of
archaeology and academic research that favours Arthur as a native
Briton. A tradition that can be traced back to pre-Norman times, and
nobody even mentioned Sarmatians till the year 2000…

Let's continue the script development. Who shall we cast as Guinevere?
Kiera Knightly's hot (in so many ways). She'd look great in one of
those flowing medieval robes, right? Then someone else pops up with
the nugget of information that Pictish women were supposed to have
gone into battle naked (maybe). Wow, that's great. Of course we
couldn't do naked, but we could wrap her in some scanty leather
thongs. Better make her a Pict…

Hang on a mo. The Picts were Scottish, weren't they? No problemo, guys
– lovely locations up there. Wouldn't have to spend so much money
dressing up the English countryside to look Post-Roman. And there's
that great Hadrian's Wall thing they used in ‘Robin Hood, Prince of
Thieves'. Didn't that have something to do with the Romans?

Now at this point our writer's ears prick up. Because he has been
doing some research, of course. And he knows very well that there's a
school of thought (in Scotland) that rather likes Arthur having a
Scottish power base. Just as the Welsh and Cornish prefer him in their
neck of the woods (all conveniently forgetting there were no national
or county boundaries in the Dark Ages anyway). But hey, there's this
Roman fort on Hadrian's Wall called Camboglanna, which might have been
Camelot (Arthur's home) or Camlann (Arthur's last battle). Or
something. And we're trying to tie Arthur in with the Romans, right?

And the Romans are leaving Britain? The frontier outpost of the
Empire? So we could have them all hiding behind the wall as the
barbarian hordes approach. And we could have a Roman frontier outpost
beyond the wall which Arthur and his homies have to rescue before the
barbarians arrive. Perfect. Sort of like ‘The Alamo' meets ‘The
Magnificent Seven'. In fifth century Britain - sorry, Scotland, or
whatever it's called. We'll put this frontier outpost at the bottom of
a valley, without apparent defences and a garrison of only six
troopers, so our heroes look properly outnumbered, right? Of course we
will…

Now then. About these barbarians. Who's sweeping down from the North?
Can't be the Picts (who actually did sweep down from the North and
were the main reason the wall was built in the first place) because
we've cast Guinevere as a Pict. Great costume, remember? She's on
Arthur's side, so it'll have to be the Saxons…

Writer breathes a sigh of relief at this point. This is the enemy
Arthur's always supposed to have fought. In fact we've got genuine
writing from the 6th and 7th century that documents a lengthy
guerrilla war between the Britons and the Saxons. Only one snag.
Touchstone's Saxon army is supposed to be sweeping down from the
North. And all the archaeological and written evidence has the Saxons
raiding along the East coast of the British Isles, about as far North
as Yorkshire. Which is rather a long way South of Hadrian's Wall.

What the hey. Great wall, lovely scenery, Guinevere's a Pict. Stick
the Saxons up there, no-one'll ever notice. Blur the edges a bit by
calling the Picts ‘Woads'. That'll explain all that blue paint on
their faces. Just like that Mel Gibson ‘Braveheart' thing that made
all that money a few years back. Always a crowd-pleaser, that blue
paint…

Now let's look at the characters. Hey those knights had great names,
right? Lancelot, Gawain, Bors, Tristan, Galahad, Merlin. Got to get
them in there somewhere…

At this point our writer's squirming a bit, knowing full well that all
these names are part of the medieval tradition, and the only ones you
have a hope of tracing back to the post-Roman Dark Ages are Arthur and
Guinevere. You can trace Tristan back to Cornwall, about a
half-century later, but we've decided by now that Tristan's this
really cool, James Coburn-like character with a tame eagle who has to
die at the hands of the big bad Saxon leader, so we'd better ignore
the possibility that Tristan may not even have known Arthur, let alone
fought with him.

And we've got to have Lancelot, even though he's the least likely to
be an actual historical figure. A love triangle always plays well in
the movie houses. Even if you have to reduce it to a little passing
flirting in order to make room for the battles.

As for Merlin, it wouldn't be right to have an Arthur film without
him. Never mind that you can't trace his name back much further than
the 7th century with any clarity: he'd look good in blue paint. We'll
make him a Pict too…

Writer breathes a sigh of relief and scribbles hasty notes. Picts are
Barbarians, Romans are Christians. Ergo, Merlin has to be a Pict. Then
he can wander round the Scottish woodland looking mysterious and
druid-like. Without actually doing any magic or anything – after all
we're supposed to be historically accurate here. Apart, that is, from
the names and the location and Arthur's origins and the enemy and the
time frame…

Time frame? Hey, we got that one on the button, guys. The Romans leave
Britain in the fifth century, so that's when we'll make it happen.
We'll even put a date on the screen right at the start of the film. A
date that's right smack dab in the middle of the fifth century. That
way there'll be no doubt whatsoever.

AD 450. Plus fifteen years to allow Lancelot to grow up and shoehorn
in that great scene on the Russian steppes.

Here's our writer, whipping out the blue pencil yet again. Knowing
full well from his researches that the Emperor Honorius wrote to the
cities of Britain in 410, instructing them to look to their own
defences. After that date, Britain isn't a Roman colony at all. It's a
Roman society, rapidly going to ruin in the face of the Barbarian
invasions, and its people are British, maintaining contact with Rome
primarily through the church.

And the only two listed dates in any of the Dark Age histories that
mention Arthur are 516 (the battle of Badon) and 537 (the battle of
Camlann). That's an awfully long time after the Romans have left the
building.

Oh well, says our writer, tearing up his notes. Dates in Dark Age
histories are notoriously hard to substantiate. It's all about story
and characterisation, right? Oh, and great scenery…

Now how are we going to end this film, guys? Better be a happy ending,
so we'll close with a wedding. A wedding conducted by Merlin (a
pagan), between Guinevere (also a pagan) and Arthur (a Christian).
Guinevere in flowing Pre-Raphaelite white, natch.

Never mind the religious differences, and the fact that there were
plenty of Christian churches in which the new king of the Britons
might choose to wed the woman of his dreams. We've got two pagans in
this scene, so we'll set it in a pagan location.

Whassatmean, guys? What looks pagan?

I know! Stonehenge.

The writer, despairing, mutters something about Stonehenge being in
Wiltshire.

Never you mind, old son. We'll relocate it to Scotland. We'll put it
on the clifftops so we can end by firing some more flaming arrows over
the ocean. For no particular reason other than the flaming arrows seem
to have played particularly well in viewing the battle scene rushes.

Stonehenge-by-the-Sea. The writer falls silent, dreaming of many
Martinis.

Which just about covers it. Except to mention:

- The stirrups (which Roman cavalry probably didn't use)

- The Saxon warlord. Who totally stole the show, and gave a pretty
accurate portrayal (to this writer at least) of the kind of character
Arthur really might have been...

Hollywood. Go figure.
Orjan Westin
2004-09-18 20:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Mark Gamon wrote:

<snip>
You know, that's believeble enough to make me interested in your portrayal.
Is it published/staged/screened?
Post by Mark Gamon
- The stirrups (which Roman cavalry probably didn't use)
No, although they had been invented by that time. In China.
http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl1d.html#xtocid2243678
Post by Mark Gamon
- The Saxon warlord. Who totally stole the show
Ah, Stellan Skarsgard - he's always reliable. I read an interview he gave
in a Swedish broadsheet that he and the other Saxon lads just tried to have
fun and ham it up as much as possible without being told off. Apparently,
they wanted them to be BAD guys, and it shows pretty well. He seemed to
enjoy himself, though.

Orjan
Mark Gamon
2004-09-19 11:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Orjan

Many thanks for your comment (and interest). I'm amazed how fast it
got there!

Re the stirrups: Yup, I take your point about China. And of course if
you stretch the geography it's just possible that Sarmatian warriors
might have found out about them. Which makes it even more stretchingly
possible that they'd be in Britain, but only if the Sarmatians were.
And you know what I think about THAT hypothesis :)


Re the book (and really trying hard not to slip into blatant
advertising): it's a self-publish at present. And I'd love for it to
find readers. If you're at all curious, you can find further
information (and sample text) at www.clunkandrattlewriting.com. But
bear in mind it's a deliberate attempt to deconstruct the legend, so
don't expect Lancelot to make an appearance!

Looking forward to more debate in here...

All the best

Mark
Sollers
2004-09-19 11:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Working on my own novel (still haven't got one of the three key characters
to Britain) there seems a bit of controversy as to whether or not they had
stirrups; trouble is, if they did they would probably have been made of
leather and so no archaeological remains. I'm still trying to gather my
sources together for the next-but-one stage, but there's a reference to use
of Hun bows and Hun style riding in Britain somewhere.

(Key character? The military engineer who refortified South Cadbury. I
think that makes it pretty clear where I stand on all this)
Post by Orjan Westin
<snip>
You know, that's believeble enough to make me interested in your portrayal.
Is it published/staged/screened?
Post by Mark Gamon
- The stirrups (which Roman cavalry probably didn't use)
No, although they had been invented by that time. In China.
http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl1d.html#xtocid2243678
Post by Mark Gamon
- The Saxon warlord. Who totally stole the show
Ah, Stellan Skarsgard - he's always reliable. I read an interview he gave
in a Swedish broadsheet that he and the other Saxon lads just tried to have
fun and ham it up as much as possible without being told off. Apparently,
they wanted them to be BAD guys, and it shows pretty well. He seemed to
enjoy himself, though.
Orjan
Mark Gamon
2004-09-19 18:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sollers

South Cadbury, eh? We've got some crossover - it crops up in my take
on the legend too. I've got Arthur's power base in the West Country,
but I don't subscribe to the view that he necessarily has to belong to
any one region. My personal hunch (and of course it is only a hunch)
is that if he existed he probably covered the whole of Britain in his
prime. In any case, I'm not sure we can easily conceive how a sixth
century Briton saw the concept of 'Britain'. Let's face it - mapmaking
was still a pretty primitive science in those days, so tthey wouldn't
have had our visual sense of these islands anyway. Plus I sesupec that
by the time of Arthur's demise, 'Britain' probably described something
that wasn't 'The British Isles'. More like the Western strip - or the
lands that hadn't been occupied by Saxons (invited or otherwise) for
many decades...

Sorry, I'm rambling now!
Sollers
2004-09-20 17:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Mapmaking was a bit irrelevant - itineraries were the thing. In the 5th
century there seems to still have been a hangover of the old set-up - the
Diocese of the Britains consisting of the provinces of Maxima Caesariensis,
Flavia Caesariensis,. Britannia Prima, Britannia Secunda and Valentia, only
nobody seems to agree on where this was. I'm seeing his concern as being
the whole country; one of my heresies is that for a lot of the time he's not
actually that bothered about the Saxons - the Irish are much more of a
threat (and his success there can be seen by the fact that, despite major
settlements in Wales, the North West and the West Country, Western Britain
didn't go the way of Scotland). It was only when Aelle got a large
following, and after the massacre at Pevensey( very aberrant because mostly
one didn't massacre conquered groups, one sold them) that much was needed to
be done about them outside the South East. It's significant, I think, that
Aelle, the first Bretwalda, vanishes from the record after about 500
together with his sons and the whole kingdom of Sussex goes into eclipse
Mark Gamon
2004-09-21 16:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sollers - you're right about itineraries. Must have given everyone
a very linear view ofo the landscape, don't you think? As opposed to
the visual snaphot that maps give us...

Your take on Arthur's concerns are similar to mine. Yes, of course the
Saxons - they'd have been an omnipresent cultural threat to a
Post-Roman elite, whether they were invited in or not. But the thing
that strikes me most about Post-Roman Britain is the tribal shape of
the thing. It's always seemed a little like Yugoslavia without Tito,
or even Iraq without Saddam. Take away the controlling hand, and the
warlords will bicker among themselves as much as they unite to face a
common enemy.

My hunch (which will remain a hunch for ever, of course) is that
Arthur somehow slipped through the tribal cracks. And perhaps wasn't
an important enough warlord (socially) to be acknowledged by his
contemporaries. Except in legend...
Sollers
2004-09-21 18:36:23 UTC
Permalink
A-HA. Now, this is where we differ: my OTHER heresy (you know they say "you
can't go home again"? This could be a reason why not in my case) is that
Arthur was half Saxon. Think about the evidence in the Trioedd: masses of
info on his mother's family but not a dicky bird on his father's - in fact,
the older Welsh stuff doesn't even give his name. Illegitimacy isn't the
answer because Welsh law couldn't give a damn about it - there must have
been a very, very good reason for Welsh tradition to sweep the whole matter
of his father under the carpet.

I actually don't think they were bothered about the Saxons for long. The
initial incursion in the South East got more or less halted in Kent; Aelle
got stopped dead (literally) and Wessex didn't really get started till mid
century, after the plague, climatic disasters and what not, whether they
were the result of a comet (personally I like the idea of the sky falling)
or volcanoes, seriously messed up the country.

The social set-up seems to be rather patchworky (I agree a lot, if not
completely, with Dark) but I keep on reminding myself that Gildas referred
to cities as going concerns, even if they weren't what they used to be. And
after all, the same could be said about the cities in Gaul.

The big trouble from the archaeological point of view, but something I
intend to exploit from the novel point of view, is that it is virtually
impossible to tell the difference between Irish; not very Romanised Brits;
Romanised Brits; other Romans; Saxons; Franks; other Germans; Huns.
Post by Mark Gamon
Hi Sollers - you're right about itineraries. Must have given everyone
a very linear view ofo the landscape, don't you think? As opposed to
the visual snaphot that maps give us...
Your take on Arthur's concerns are similar to mine. Yes, of course the
Saxons - they'd have been an omnipresent cultural threat to a
Post-Roman elite, whether they were invited in or not. But the thing
that strikes me most about Post-Roman Britain is the tribal shape of
the thing. It's always seemed a little like Yugoslavia without Tito,
or even Iraq without Saddam. Take away the controlling hand, and the
warlords will bicker among themselves as much as they unite to face a
common enemy.
My hunch (which will remain a hunch for ever, of course) is that
Arthur somehow slipped through the tribal cracks. And perhaps wasn't
an important enough warlord (socially) to be acknowledged by his
contemporaries. Except in legend...
Mark Gamon
2004-09-22 06:58:30 UTC
Permalink
We are going to HAVE to compare novels when yours is done. I rather
like your half-Saxon notion. There must have been so much
cross-fertilisation going on that the racial edges blurred very
rapidly during this period. Patchy social set-up, patchy racial
set-up, with confusion the common factor. And a lot of ordinary people
struggling along with their lives. We need to remember that any
written 'evidence' (like Gildas. Or Bede) comes from the elite: I
suspect most people didn't have a clue what their tribal leaders were
arguing about, and preferred to just carry on tending the farm. Or
migrating hither and thither in search of some kind of prosperity.
Just like today's economic migrants, in fact.

The worst thing about finishing a novel on a subject like this is
finishing. You get the damn thing all printed up, then you drop into
the alt. king-arthur newsgroup (or watch the latest TV series) and
trip over a whole load of new ideas that you might have used. But then
a novel is a fiction, so the story comes first anyway...

There was one recent idea that slipped into mine which I'm delighted
to see you mention, and that's the volcano theory. Just in passing,
because it was slightly outside my timeframe, but I loved the idea of
the skies going dark and the crops failing for a few years and no-one
having the faintest idea why it might be happening. It gives the
confusion a supernatural edge...

I'm not used to newsgroups. Am I breaking with protocol by deleting
the previous letter in my responses? I find all that 'snip' and 'Mark
Gamon wrote...' stuff very confusing to read, so I just compose my
reply and leave the rest of the field blank!
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
2004-09-22 11:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Mark Gamon <***@btconnect.com> wrote:
: I'm not used to newsgroups. Am I breaking with protocol by deleting
: the previous letter in my responses? I find all that 'snip' and 'Mark
: Gamon wrote...' stuff very confusing to read, so I just compose my
: reply and leave the rest of the field blank!

As long as your replies context themselves so that the subject is
apparent, there oughtn't be a lot of trouble. You seem to be doing this;
but if all you had said in *this* message had been the single sentence,
"We should compare ours when they come out," what you meant would have
been excessively open to interpretation.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

"A cartoonist creates his whole universe without any input. Charles Schulz
had a little workshop ... He never had to leave his house."
Sollers
2004-09-22 18:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Email me on ***@nodominion.me.uk putting a hyphen in between "no" and
"dominion" and I'll send you the web address - it's currently up for beta
reading. This book is simply getting into Britain one of the "Three
Battle-Diademed Warriors of the Island of Britain" (of whom there are
actually four).

I'm very keen on the disaster idea; basically, Arthur won; it was nothing to
do with him that the climate went to hell in a handbasket after he died. He
won anyway, insofar as the Irish didn't take over Cumbria, Wales and the
West Country.
Post by Mark Gamon
We are going to HAVE to compare novels when yours is done. I rather
like your half-Saxon notion. There must have been so much
cross-fertilisation going on that the racial edges blurred very
rapidly during this period. Patchy social set-up, patchy racial
set-up, with confusion the common factor. And a lot of ordinary people
struggling along with their lives. We need to remember that any
written 'evidence' (like Gildas. Or Bede) comes from the elite: I
suspect most people didn't have a clue what their tribal leaders were
arguing about, and preferred to just carry on tending the farm. Or
migrating hither and thither in search of some kind of prosperity.
Just like today's economic migrants, in fact.
The worst thing about finishing a novel on a subject like this is
finishing. You get the damn thing all printed up, then you drop into
the alt. king-arthur newsgroup (or watch the latest TV series) and
trip over a whole load of new ideas that you might have used. But then
a novel is a fiction, so the story comes first anyway...
There was one recent idea that slipped into mine which I'm delighted
to see you mention, and that's the volcano theory. Just in passing,
because it was slightly outside my timeframe, but I loved the idea of
the skies going dark and the crops failing for a few years and no-one
having the faintest idea why it might be happening. It gives the
confusion a supernatural edge...
I'm not used to newsgroups. Am I breaking with protocol by deleting
the previous letter in my responses? I find all that 'snip' and 'Mark
Gamon wrote...' stuff very confusing to read, so I just compose my
reply and leave the rest of the field blank!
b***@comswest.net.au
2005-01-17 09:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Gamon
Hi Sollers
South Cadbury, eh? We've got some crossover - it crops up in my take
on the legend too. I've got Arthur's power base in the West Country,
but I don't subscribe to the view that he necessarily has to belong to
any one region. My personal hunch (and of course it is only a hunch)
is that if he existed he probably covered the whole of Britain in his
prime. In any case, I'm not sure we can easily conceive how a sixth
century Briton saw the concept of 'Britain'. Let's face it -
mapmaking
Post by Mark Gamon
was still a pretty primitive science in those days, so tthey wouldn't
have had our visual sense of these islands anyway. Plus I sesupec that
by the time of Arthur's demise, 'Britain' probably described
something
Post by Mark Gamon
that wasn't 'The British Isles'. More like the Western strip - or the
lands that hadn't been occupied by Saxons (invited or otherwise) for
many decades...
Sorry, I'm rambling now!
I suspect we do Dark Age Britons a disservice when we estimate their
knowledge of their world. We imagine that because Britain had
disintegrated (or so we suspect) into many, shifting petty kingdoms,
that their inhabitants' world horizons contracted accordingly. Yet a
few generations earlier these people had been part of a world Empire
and possessed goods from all sides of the Mediterranean Sea. Did they
lose knowledge of the world so quickly? Unlikely, in my opinion. They
certainly knew where Gaul was when large numbers of them chose to
high-tail it to Brittany.

But whether any ruler would want or be able to send his forces, such as
they were, any distance from his home base is another matter. Britain
being such a political patchwork, even 6th century Britain's small
armed bands would need to tread very carefully venturing into
neighbouring territory.

But one question: you're not worried about developing Arthur as a West
Country figure, and, I imagine, giving him a role in the important
business of the time, which could only be the Seige of Badon and the 50
year halt on German expansion -- when Gildas fails to mention such an
important figure in that area at that time? Or don't you care?
-- rick boyd

Penner Theologius Pott
2004-09-20 22:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Sweet Lord, I cannot stop laughing. This the sharpest, most direct,
and most delightfully mean-spirited thing that I've read about this
movie. I'm ranking it up there with the Guardian's article:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,1288747,00.html

Wonderful stuff.
Mark Gamon
2004-09-21 16:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Penner. I was feeling pretty mean when I wrote it. Feel free to
cut and paste...

And thanks for drawing my attention to the Guardian article.
Interesting. We seem to be dividing into two types of 'Arthurian' -
those who favour the medieval legend, and those who are concerned with
hunting down the Dark Age reality. Personally I think there's room for
both, so long as we distinguish the two. What I can't forgive is a
film that claims to be the Dark Age reality without any apparent
scholarship to back up the claim. And turns out to be a pretty awful
piece of story-telling to boot.

I'm not being anti-movie here. They can do what they like with
historical reality so long as they don't try and sell it as such. Take
'Shakespeare in Love' or 'A Knight's Tale' - both utter nonsense, but
delightful to watch all the same.

Come to think of it, that may be true of 'Gladiator' too. No idea if
it's accurate (I suspect not) but it worked beautifully as a story.
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