Curse of the third Batman movie?

[Duggy]

they convinced him that Ep. 4 would be
the best movie to make first

I've heard him say that he himself felt "the first act" of the "film"
was the best stand alone, that the fourth film was the best stand
alone.

(They might well have been saying to themselves, "only.")

He claims that he felt that it was "only" too.

 Unless he was making up what happened between him
and TCF,

He makes up a lot of things.

He was both disappointed when ANH turned out to be a kiddy film *and*
planned it to be a kiddie film all along.

at that time he at least had six episodes

That isn't nine.

I also think -- and this is purely my own opinion -- that the division
of the saga into three generation-units fits with the extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga,

Borrowing from Arthur? He used Campbell's Hero's Journey plot
structure which fits many Arthurian legends, but there's very little
specific borrowing from Arthur.

which supports the idea that he had all nine in mind from the beginning.

Uther, Arthur and...?

And Uther never gets a full third. He's half a chapter in Mallory.

And to get back to the original discussion, the point was that he didn't
make the third movie because the first two made money.

As has been pointed out, he's said many contradictory things over
time, ususally to make it sound like he knew what he was doing all
along. It isn't always case.

The plan to make it was there from the beginning, at least after Ep. 4 made enough money
to make it possible. Notice that the second ended on a cliffhanger. Now
Episodes 1-3, perhaps...

Yes. There is ample evidence after Episode 4 made money that 2 & 3
were planned. In fact there is ample evidence that he told Fox that
he wanted to do another 8 when they asked about sequels.

[Bill Steele]

In article

Post by Duggy

I also think -- and this is purely my own opinion -- that the division
of the saga into three generation-units fits with the extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga,

Borrowing from Arthur? He used Campbell's Hero's Journey plot
structure which fits many Arthurian legends, but there's very little
specific borrowing from Arthur.

A young man unaware of his heritage gets a sword that belonged to his
father and uses it to overcome evil, helped by a mentor who dies but
returns in spirit...

The part about Lancelot stealing his woman is implicit at the beginning,
but gets fudged out eventually. (Try pronouncing "Lancelot" in French.)

Post by Duggy

which supports the idea that he had all nine in mind from the beginning.

Uther, Arthur and...?

Modred.

[Duggy]

Post by Bill Steele
In article

I also think -- and this is purely my own opinion -- that the division
of the saga into three generation-units fits with the extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga,

Borrowing from Arthur?  He used Campbell's Hero's Journey plot
structure which fits many Arthurian legends, but there's very little
specific borrowing from Arthur.

A young man unaware of his heritage gets a sword that belonged to his
father and uses it to overcome evil, helped by a mentor who dies but
returns in spirit...

That's very general story stuff. You could pull that out for anything
and apply it to many other comparisons.

Vader's lightsaber is just a lightsaber it isn't Excaliber or
Sequence.

His father isn't actually dead but rather is the evil.

Mentors always "die" and "return", look at Gandoff. It's part of the
Campbell's Hero's Journey, as I've said before.

Post by Bill Steele
The part about Lancelot stealing his woman is implicit at the beginning,
but gets fudged out eventually.  (Try pronouncing "Lancelot" in French.)

Huh?

Post by Bill Steele

which supports the idea that he had all nine in mind from the beginning.

Uther, Arthur and...?

Modred.

Mordred doesn't get a unit. He is part of Arthur's unit. And there
is if you're saying that it's Uther/Anakin and Arthur/Luke who is
Mordred?

Where does Luke's sister fit the Arthur template? Where does Arthur's
aunt fit into Star Wars?

===
= DUG.
===

[Bill Steele]

In article

Post by Duggy

Post by Bill Steele
In article

I also think -- and this is purely my own opinion -- that the division
of the saga into three generation-units fits with the extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga,

Borrowing from Arthur?  He used Campbell's Hero's Journey plot
structure which fits many Arthurian legends, but there's very little
specific borrowing from Arthur.

A young man unaware of his heritage gets a sword that belonged to his
father and uses it to overcome evil, helped by a mentor who dies but
returns in spirit...

That's very general story stuff. You could pull that out for anything
and apply it to many other comparisons.
Vader's lightsaber is just a lightsaber it isn't Excaliber or
Sequence.
His father isn't actually dead but rather is the evil.
Mentors always "die" and "return", look at Gandoff. It's part of the
Campbell's Hero's Journey, as I've said before.

Post by Bill Steele
The part about Lancelot stealing his woman is implicit at the beginning,
but gets fudged out eventually.  (Try pronouncing "Lancelot" in French.)

Huh?

Post by Bill Steele

which supports the idea that he had all nine in mind from the beginning.

Uther, Arthur and...?

Modred.

Mordred doesn't get a unit. He is part of Arthur's unit. And there
is if you're saying that it's Uther/Anakin and Arthur/Luke who is
Mordred?
Where does Luke's sister fit the Arthur template? Where does Arthur's
aunt fit into Star Wars?

I never said it was a perfect fit, just that it matches the
three-generation pattern of the story (I think the time it took Modred
to grow up counts as a generation). Obviously nobody is Modred, unless
they decide to make three more movies.

[Duggy]

Post by Bill Steele
I never said it was a perfect fit, just that it matches the
three-generation pattern of the story (I think the time it took Modred
to grow up counts as a generation). Obviously nobody is Modred, unless
they decide to make three more movies.

The first generation which is little more than preamble to a story
about the second generation which includes the third as a villain v
the story of a first generation who is the villain in the story about
the second generation.

You're right about the fit not being perfect.

A father, a son and an older mentor that "dies" is so vague it could
fit lot of things.

Superman. Jor-El is both the father & and the mentor who teaches from
beyond the grave. Throw in Superman Returns and you've got a third
generation, too.
Indianna Jones had a father. Sure, he didn't die and come back, but
he almost did. And you can throw a third generation into that story,
too.
We've previously discussed LotR which has Uncle, Nephew and mentor who
comes back from the dead.
Etc, etc.

You really don't seem to understand the essence of Arthurian legend,
Star Wars or Campbell's The Hero's Journey.

You have come up with nothing to back up your claim of "extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga"

===
= DUG.
===

[Bill Steele]

In article

Post by Duggy

Post by Bill Steele
I never said it was a perfect fit, just that it matches the
three-generation pattern of the story (I think the time it took Modred
to grow up counts as a generation). Obviously nobody is Modred, unless
they decide to make three more movies.

The first generation which is little more than preamble to a story
about the second generation which includes the third as a villain v
the story of a first generation who is the villain in the story about
the second generation.
You're right about the fit not being perfect.
A father, a son and an older mentor that "dies" is so vague it could
fit lot of things.
Superman. Jor-El is both the father & and the mentor who teaches from
beyond the grave. Throw in Superman Returns and you've got a third
generation, too.
Indianna Jones had a father. Sure, he didn't die and come back, but
he almost did. And you can throw a third generation into that story,
too.
We've previously discussed LotR which has Uncle, Nephew and mentor who
comes back from the dead.
Etc, etc.
You really don't seem to understand the essence of Arthurian legend,
Star Wars or Campbell's The Hero's Journey.
You have come up with nothing to back up your claim of "extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga"
===
= DUG.
===

I wouldn't agree on nothing. I came up with something. I probably
shouldn't have said "extensive." And no, I probably don't understand
those essences. I'm not a literary scholar, just a guy who goes to
movies.

Your examples stretch a bit further than mine, IMHO. And even if I can
prove that seven other people parked where I did, it doesn't get me out
of the ticket.

[Duggy]

Post by Bill Steele

Post by Duggy
You have come up with nothing to back up your claim of "extensive
borrowing from the Arthurian saga"

I wouldn't agree on nothing. I came up with something.

A very weak something. A something that can be explained by a lot of
other things.

Post by Bill Steele
I probably shouldn't have said "extensive."

Probably.

Post by Bill Steele
And no, I probably don't understand those essences. I'm not a literary scholar, just a guy who goes to
movies.

Ah. Well that's the difference I guess.

Post by Bill Steele
Your examples stretch a bit further than mine, IMHO.

Not much further.

Post by Bill Steele
And even if I can prove that seven other people parked where I did, it doesn't get me out
of the ticket.

Sure, but the assumption that because two things have some
similarities one must have copied the other is very flawed logic.

Lucas admits to using Campbell's Hero's Journey for his plot
structure. Campbell used mythology from all over the world, including
Arthurian and the mythology that Arthur copied and was formed from.
The similarities that are there are because they fit the same
mythological template, not because one copied the other.

===
= DUG.
===

[Bill Steele]

In article

Post by Duggy
Sure, but the assumption that because two things have some
similarities one must have copied the other is very flawed logic.
Lucas admits to using Campbell's Hero's Journey for his plot
structure. Campbell used mythology from all over the world, including
Arthurian and the mythology that Arthur copied and was formed from.
The similarities that are there are because they fit the same
mythological template, not because one copied the other.

Never said it was logic. Just my analysis. Triggered, in fact, by
watching Excalibur and Star Wars on TV within a week of one another.

If he studied Hero's Journey he had a lot of Arthur in his head. Does
Hero's Journey find the three-generation structure everywhere?

[Duggy]

Post by Bill Steele
If he studied Hero's Journey he had a lot of Arthur in his head.

Huh?

Post by Bill Steele
Does Hero's Journey find the three-generation structure everywhere?

The hero's journey includes:

"I.3 Supernatural Aid"

Usually includes a mentor (Obi-wan, Merlin)

"II.4 Atonement with the Father"

Which would be Luke/Vader in Star Wars.

The three generation thing is something that you've claimed... but
isn't relevent to Star Wars (apart from the EU) apart from the fact
that you want to use it to tie to Arthur.

The three Generation thing doesn't even work that well in Arthur.
Generation 1 dies before Generation 2 is born, the first born is rare
mentioned and barely mentioned when he is, the second is usually a
major villain and dies at the same time as the Second... there's not a
story inter-generational follow through.

You've still shown very little with the generations to make the Star
Wars/Arthurian thing work.

Vader works more as Uther (Father "dead" and absent from childhood) &
Mordred (family turned betrayer) with Luke as Arthur. There's no room
if you're really tracking Arthur with Star Wars for a third
generation. The story's been told.

I miss Arthurian Literature, it was such a fun subject.

===
= DUG.
===

[Bill Steele]

In article

Post by Duggy

Post by Bill Steele
If he studied Hero's Journey he had a lot of Arthur in his head.

Huh?

Post by Bill Steele
Does Hero's Journey find the three-generation structure everywhere?

"I.3 Supernatural Aid"
Usually includes a mentor (Obi-wan, Merlin)
"II.4 Atonement with the Father"
Which would be Luke/Vader in Star Wars.
The three generation thing is something that you've claimed... but
isn't relevent to Star Wars (apart from the EU) apart from the fact
that you want to use it to tie to Arthur.
The three Generation thing doesn't even work that well in Arthur.
Generation 1 dies before Generation 2 is born, the first born is rare
mentioned and barely mentioned when he is, the second is usually a
major villain and dies at the same time as the Second... there's not a
story inter-generational follow through.
You've still shown very little with the generations to make the Star
Wars/Arthurian thing work.
Vader works more as Uther (Father "dead" and absent from childhood) &
Mordred (family turned betrayer) with Luke as Arthur. There's no room
if you're really tracking Arthur with Star Wars for a third
generation. The story's been told.
I miss Arthurian Literature, it was such a fun subject.

You do have the advantage of me there. Like I said, I saw Excalibur.

Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation apart."
Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place. We
don't even know if Lucas knew.

[Anybody]

Post by Bill Steele
In article

Post by Duggy

Post by Bill Steele
If he studied Hero's Journey he had a lot of Arthur in his head.

Huh?

Post by Bill Steele
Does Hero's Journey find the three-generation structure everywhere?

"I.3 Supernatural Aid"
Usually includes a mentor (Obi-wan, Merlin)
"II.4 Atonement with the Father"
Which would be Luke/Vader in Star Wars.
The three generation thing is something that you've claimed... but
isn't relevent to Star Wars (apart from the EU) apart from the fact
that you want to use it to tie to Arthur.
The three Generation thing doesn't even work that well in Arthur.
Generation 1 dies before Generation 2 is born, the first born is rare
mentioned and barely mentioned when he is, the second is usually a
major villain and dies at the same time as the Second... there's not a
story inter-generational follow through.
You've still shown very little with the generations to make the Star
Wars/Arthurian thing work.
Vader works more as Uther (Father "dead" and absent from childhood) &
Mordred (family turned betrayer) with Luke as Arthur. There's no room
if you're really tracking Arthur with Star Wars for a third
generation. The story's been told.
I miss Arthurian Literature, it was such a fun subject.

You do have the advantage of me there. Like I said, I saw Excalibur.
Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation apart."
Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place. We
don't even know if Lucas knew.

The now mythical Third Trilogy of the Star Wars Saga movies was going
to be about Luke going off to find his sister and together they would
defeat the Emperor, so it has nothing to do with a third generation.

BUT, if you take the follow-on novels into account, then you do indeed
have a third generation in Han and Leia's children.

[Duggy]

Post by Anybody
BUT, if you take the follow-on novels into account, then you do indeed
have a third generation in Han and Leia's children.

More if you consider the Legacy comics.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

Post by Bill Steele
Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation apart."

Uther is usally prolong, but is a time period a generation apart.

The bulk of the story takes place over a long single period, young
Arthur becomes King, his knights have adventures, things turn bad,
Arthur's killed and a little about after Arthur.

Some tellings use distinct time periods... TH White, certainly, but to
claim that the story is broken up generally into three distinct
periods isn't really true, and often there are 4 or more periods.

Then again, there are really 3 distinct already in Star Wars, but
admittedly not all generational. TPM is clearly years earlier than
the rest of the prequels, then the generational gap.

Post by Bill Steele
Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place. We
don't even know if Lucas knew.

True. I think there was a symetry to the idea of a trilogy of
trilogies that appealed to Lucas, but I'm not sure he had any ideas
beyond that. Certainly the end of Jedi does leave much open for
another trilogy.

===
= DUG.
===

[Aaron *Brother Head* Moss]

"Bill Steele" <***@cornell.edu> wrote in message news:ws21-***@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
: In article
:
: Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation apart."
: Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place. We
: don't even know if Lucas knew.

I read somewhere (a long time ago, in a galaxy not so far away) that Lucas
didn't want the EU books to do much with Wookies, as in Lucas' next trilogy,
the Wookie would become the next line of Jedi.

I don't recall where I read that, but it's been awhile back, so don't quote
me on that.

[Anybody]

Post by Aaron *Brother Head* Moss
: In article
: Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation apart."
: Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place. We
: don't even know if Lucas knew.
I read somewhere (a long time ago, in a galaxy not so far away) that Lucas
didn't want the EU books to do much with Wookies, as in Lucas' next trilogy,
the Wookie would become the next line of Jedi.
I don't recall where I read that, but it's been awhile back, so don't quote
me on that.

I don't think that's right. You may be confusing it with George Lucas'
original plan for the Wookiees, which was to be the primitive race that
helps the Rebels defaet the Empire, but because Chewie had become a
major sophisticated character, he decided not to do that and they
created the Ewoks as a replacement.

[Aaron *Brother Head* Moss]

"Anybody" <***@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message news:241020080854091329%***@anywhere-anytime.com...
: In article <***@pghconnect.com>, "Aaron
: *Brother Head* Moss" <***@brotherhead.com> wrote:
:
: > "Bill Steele" <***@cornell.edu> wrote in message
: > news:ws21-***@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
: > : In article
: > :
: > : Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation
apart."
: > : Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place.
We
: > : don't even know if Lucas knew.
: >
: > I read somewhere (a long time ago, in a galaxy not so far away) that
Lucas
: > didn't want the EU books to do much with Wookies, as in Lucas' next
trilogy,
: > the Wookie would become the next line of Jedi.
: >
: > I don't recall where I read that, but it's been awhile back, so don't
quote
: > me on that.
:
: I don't think that's right. You may be confusing it with George Lucas'
: original plan for the Wookiees, which was to be the primitive race that
: helps the Rebels defaet the Empire, but because Chewie had become a
: major sophisticated character, he decided not to do that and they
: created the Ewoks as a replacement.

It could be, but I swear I remember reading somewhere, what I wrote earlier.

I do recall hearing (or reading) what you said, but that was much later
(when I heard it).

The reason I remember what I wrote, cuz at the time I read it, I was like
"Wow! That could be interesting".

Now, maybe the source I got it from, got it confused with the Wookie/Ewok
thing. I couldn't be sure (as I can't remember where I originally read
this).
I do know it wasn't online, as I wasn't online at the time (early to mid
90's).

[Anybody]

Post by Aaron *Brother Head* Moss
: > : In article
: > : Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation
apart."
: > : Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take place.
We
: > : don't even know if Lucas knew.
: >
: > I read somewhere (a long time ago, in a galaxy not so far away) that
Lucas
: > didn't want the EU books to do much with Wookies, as in Lucas' next
trilogy,
: > the Wookie would become the next line of Jedi.
: >
: > I don't recall where I read that, but it's been awhile back, so don't
quote
: > me on that.
: I don't think that's right. You may be confusing it with George Lucas'
: original plan for the Wookiees, which was to be the primitive race that
: helps the Rebels defaet the Empire, but because Chewie had become a
: major sophisticated character, he decided not to do that and they
: created the Ewoks as a replacement.
It could be, but I swear I remember reading somewhere, what I wrote earlier.
I do recall hearing (or reading) what you said, but that was much later
(when I heard it).
The reason I remember what I wrote, cuz at the time I read it, I was like
"Wow! That could be interesting".
Now, maybe the source I got it from, got it confused with the Wookie/Ewok
thing. I couldn't be sure (as I can't remember where I originally read
this). I do know it wasn't online, as I wasn't online at the time (early
to mid 90's).

Maybe it was just a typical lazy reporter who published confused
nonsense without checking it. :-)

[Aaron *Brother Head* Moss]

"Anybody" <***@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message news:241020081241381606%***@anywhere-anytime.com...
: In article <***@pghconnect.com>, "Aaron
: *Brother Head* Moss" <***@brotherhead.com> wrote:
:
: > "Anybody" <***@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote in message
: > news:241020080854091329%***@anywhere-anytime.com...
: > : In article <***@pghconnect.com>, "Aaron
: > : *Brother Head* Moss" <***@brotherhead.com> wrote:
: > :
: > : > "Bill Steele" <***@cornell.edu> wrote in message
: > : > news:ws21-***@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
: > : > : In article
: > : > :
: > : > : Maybe I should have said "three time periods, about a generation
: > apart."
: > : > : Of course we'll never know when the third trilogy would take
place.
: > We
: > : > : don't even know if Lucas knew.
: > : >
: > : > I read somewhere (a long time ago, in a galaxy not so far away) that
: > Lucas
: > : > didn't want the EU books to do much with Wookies, as in Lucas' next
: > trilogy,
: > : > the Wookie would become the next line of Jedi.
: > : >
: > : > I don't recall where I read that, but it's been awhile back, so
don't
: > quote
: > : > me on that.
: > :
: > : I don't think that's right. You may be confusing it with George Lucas'
: > : original plan for the Wookiees, which was to be the primitive race
that
: > : helps the Rebels defaet the Empire, but because Chewie had become a
: > : major sophisticated character, he decided not to do that and they
: > : created the Ewoks as a replacement.
: >
: > It could be, but I swear I remember reading somewhere, what I wrote
earlier.
: >
: > I do recall hearing (or reading) what you said, but that was much later
: > (when I heard it).
: >
: > The reason I remember what I wrote, cuz at the time I read it, I was
like
: > "Wow! That could be interesting".
: >
: > Now, maybe the source I got it from, got it confused with the
Wookie/Ewok
: > thing. I couldn't be sure (as I can't remember where I originally read
: > this). I do know it wasn't online, as I wasn't online at the time (early
: > to mid 90's).
:
: Maybe it was just a typical lazy reporter who published confused
: nonsense without checking it. :-)

It very well could be.

I wish I could remember where I read that now... dammmmn.