Taliesin poem referring to Arthur????

[David]

I was looking at one of the sites promoting the new King Arthur film,
and the main researcher John Matthews claims to have found a 6th
century poem that refers to Arthur.

This seems to be it:

'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'

by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'

Does anybody know anything about this???? Unless Matthews really has
found something new (I believe he has a new Arthur book coming out
soon) this seems rather unlikely.

[Daniel]

Post by David
I was looking at one of the sites promoting the new King Arthur film,
and the main researcher John Matthews claims to have found a 6th
century poem that refers to Arthur.
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'
by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'
Does anybody know anything about this???? Unless Matthews really has
found something new (I believe he has a new Arthur book coming out
soon) this seems rather unlikely.

Having read the Book of Taliesin very recently, I couldn't begin to
guess where he got that from. As nice as it sounds I little sceptical
about this passage.

Does John Matthews have the habit of doing this - make something up? I
have problem with him and Robert Graves.

[John Adcox]

I've talked to John and met him, and while he makes no claim to being a
scholar, he is NOT, as far as I can tell, the type to make something up out of
the blue. He does, however, have a fairly public email address on his web site.
Why not write and ask him?

John
___
John Adcox

Click below for Mythology, Philosophy, Literature, Writing References and more.
http://jadcox.home.mindspring.com

[Hrothgar]

Post by John Adcox
I've talked to John and met him, and while he makes no
claim to being a scholar, he is NOT, as far as I can tell,
the type to make something up out of the blue. He does,
however, have a fairly public email address on his web
site.

John, you're right - he hasn't just made this up (though his
scholarship doesn't overwhelm...).

Post by John Adcox
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'
by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'

My arthur-sense tingled at the mention of 'Arthur the blessed'. I can
only think of one reference similar to this, in poem XV of the Book of
Taliesin, also known as Kadeir Teyrnon ('The Chair of a Prince' or
'The Chair of Teyrnon') [I've got a brief discussion of this text,
with bibliography, at
<http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthlit.htm>]. In this there is
the line (ln 19) 'Arthur vendigan', 'blessed Arthur':

The third deep matter for the wise one:
the blessing of Arthur
-- Blessed Arthur --
with harmonious song:
the defender in battle,
the trampler on nine.
(lines 17-22: J.B. Coe and S. Young _The Celtic Sources for the
Arthurian Legend_ (Llanerch, 1995), pp.148-9 and P. Sims-Williams 'The
Early Welsh Arthurian Poems' in Bromwich et al (edd.) _The Arthur of
the Welsh_ (Cardiff, 1991), p.52)

If Teyrnon is taken as the common-noun 'teyrnon', 'a prince', then the
subject of the poem may well be Arthur himself (as suggested by
Sims-Williams, 1991, p.52. Of course, it could equally well be
someone called Teyrnon or Taliesin's patron, Elffin...). It is an
*extremely* difficult poem (dating from somewhere in the 9th to 11th
centuries, not the 6th-century) and I know of no satisfactory english
translation of it. However, if you read the beginning of the only
complete translation (from Skene's _The Four Ancient Books of Wales_ 2
vols. (Edinburgh, 1868)) you will get an idea where John Matthews got
his poem from:

The declaration of a clear song,
Of unbounded Awen,
About a warrior of two authors,
Of the race of the steel Ala.
With his staff and his wisdom,
And his swift irruptions,
And his sovereign prince,
And his scriptural number,
And his red purple,
And his assault over the wail,
And his appropriate chair,
Amongst the retinue of the wall.

Let me emphasise again: this is an *extremely* difficult and obscure
poem and this is *not* a good translation of it. If you want to try
it yourself, the text is available online at
<http://www.geocities.com/branwaedd/t15w.html>. I certainly wouldn't
be tempted to use this poem in any discussion of Arthur beyond noting
the fact that lines 'He brought them from Cawrnur / pale horses under
saddle' (lns 13-4) find echo in another Book of Taliesin poem of the
same rough date, line 12 of Marwnat Uthyr Pen[dragon], which refers to
Uthyr's attack on the 'sons of Cawrnur'. Viewed together these two
references could well be taken to imply the existence of a lost
Arthurian tale in which Arthur and Uthyr warred against Cawrnur and
his sons (who were probably giants, Welsh cawr).

Hope this helps,

Tom Green
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk - Arthurian Resources
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthlit.htm - bibliography and
analysis of most non-Galfridian Welsh Arthurian literature.

[David]

So does this mean that Matthews is guilty of an extremely optimistic

Post by Hrothgar
the blessing of Arthur
-- Blessed Arthur --
the defender in battle,
the trampler on nine.

The declaration of a clear song,

Post by Hrothgar
Of unbounded Awen,
About a warrior of two authors,
Of the race of the steel Ala.
With his staff and his wisdom,
And his swift irruptions,
And his sovereign prince,
And his scriptural number,
And his red purple,
And his assault over the wail

And his appropriate chair,

Post by Hrothgar
Amongst the retinue of the wall.

Post by David
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'

Answers on a postcard please? I can see the similarities between these
three, but it's difficult to see how one could actually be mistaken
for another.

Post by Hrothgar

Post by David
I've talked to John and met him, and while he makes no
claim to being a scholar, he is NOT, as far as I can tell,
the type to make something up out of the blue. He does,
however, have a fairly public email address on his web
site.

John, you're right - he hasn't just made this up (though his
scholarship doesn't overwhelm...).

Post by David
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'
by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'

My arthur-sense tingled at the mention of 'Arthur the blessed'. I can
only think of one reference similar to this, in poem XV of the Book of
Taliesin, also known as Kadeir Teyrnon ('The Chair of a Prince' or
'The Chair of Teyrnon') [I've got a brief discussion of this text,
with bibliography, at
<http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthlit.htm>]. In this there is
the blessing of Arthur
-- Blessed Arthur --
the defender in battle,
the trampler on nine.
(lines 17-22: J.B. Coe and S. Young _The Celtic Sources for the
Arthurian Legend_ (Llanerch, 1995), pp.148-9 and P. Sims-Williams 'The
Early Welsh Arthurian Poems' in Bromwich et al (edd.) _The Arthur of
the Welsh_ (Cardiff, 1991), p.52)
If Teyrnon is taken as the common-noun 'teyrnon', 'a prince', then the
subject of the poem may well be Arthur himself (as suggested by
Sims-Williams, 1991, p.52. Of course, it could equally well be
someone called Teyrnon or Taliesin's patron, Elffin...). It is an
*extremely* difficult poem (dating from somewhere in the 9th to 11th
centuries, not the 6th-century) and I know of no satisfactory english
translation of it. However, if you read the beginning of the only
complete translation (from Skene's _The Four Ancient Books of Wales_ 2
vols. (Edinburgh, 1868)) you will get an idea where John Matthews got
The declaration of a clear song,
Of unbounded Awen,
About a warrior of two authors,
Of the race of the steel Ala.
With his staff and his wisdom,
And his swift irruptions,
And his sovereign prince,
And his scriptural number,
And his red purple,
And his assault over the wail,
And his appropriate chair,
Amongst the retinue of the wall.
Let me emphasise again: this is an *extremely* difficult and obscure
poem and this is *not* a good translation of it. If you want to try
it yourself, the text is available online at
<http://www.geocities.com/branwaedd/t15w.html>. I certainly wouldn't
be tempted to use this poem in any discussion of Arthur beyond noting
the fact that lines 'He brought them from Cawrnur / pale horses under
saddle' (lns 13-4) find echo in another Book of Taliesin poem of the
same rough date, line 12 of Marwnat Uthyr Pen[dragon], which refers to
Uthyr's attack on the 'sons of Cawrnur'. Viewed together these two
references could well be taken to imply the existence of a lost
Arthurian tale in which Arthur and Uthyr warred against Cawrnur and
his sons (who were probably giants, Welsh cawr).
Hope this helps,
Tom Green
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk - Arthurian Resources
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthlit.htm - bibliography and
analysis of most non-Galfridian Welsh Arthurian literature.

[Daniel]

So what he (Matthews) did, was snipped out a whole lot of the poem and
swapped lines in different order, until it was barely recognisable.

No, it is this sort of scholarship that does inspire me at all.

Post by Hrothgar

Post by John Adcox
I've talked to John and met him, and while he makes no
claim to being a scholar, he is NOT, as far as I can tell,
the type to make something up out of the blue. He does,
however, have a fairly public email address on his web
site.

John, you're right - he hasn't just made this up (though his
scholarship doesn't overwhelm...).

Post by John Adcox
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'
by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'

My arthur-sense tingled at the mention of 'Arthur the blessed'. I can
only think of one reference similar to this, in poem XV of the Book of
Taliesin, also known as Kadeir Teyrnon ('The Chair of a Prince' or
'The Chair of Teyrnon') [I've got a brief discussion of this text,
with bibliography, at
<http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthlit.htm>]. In this there is
the blessing of Arthur
-- Blessed Arthur --
the defender in battle,
the trampler on nine.
(lines 17-22: J.B. Coe and S. Young _The Celtic Sources for the
Arthurian Legend_ (Llanerch, 1995), pp.148-9 and P. Sims-Williams 'The
Early Welsh Arthurian Poems' in Bromwich et al (edd.) _The Arthur of
the Welsh_ (Cardiff, 1991), p.52)
If Teyrnon is taken as the common-noun 'teyrnon', 'a prince', then the
subject of the poem may well be Arthur himself (as suggested by
Sims-Williams, 1991, p.52. Of course, it could equally well be
someone called Teyrnon or Taliesin's patron, Elffin...). It is an
*extremely* difficult poem (dating from somewhere in the 9th to 11th
centuries, not the 6th-century) and I know of no satisfactory english
translation of it. However, if you read the beginning of the only
complete translation (from Skene's _The Four Ancient Books of Wales_ 2
vols. (Edinburgh, 1868)) you will get an idea where John Matthews got
The declaration of a clear song,
Of unbounded Awen,
About a warrior of two authors,
Of the race of the steel Ala.
With his staff and his wisdom,
And his swift irruptions,
And his sovereign prince,
And his scriptural number,
And his red purple,
And his assault over the wail,
And his appropriate chair,
Amongst the retinue of the wall.
Let me emphasise again: this is an *extremely* difficult and obscure
poem and this is *not* a good translation of it. If you want to try
it yourself, the text is available online at
<http://www.geocities.com/branwaedd/t15w.html>. I certainly wouldn't
be tempted to use this poem in any discussion of Arthur beyond noting
the fact that lines 'He brought them from Cawrnur / pale horses under
saddle' (lns 13-4) find echo in another Book of Taliesin poem of the
same rough date, line 12 of Marwnat Uthyr Pen[dragon], which refers to
Uthyr's attack on the 'sons of Cawrnur'. Viewed together these two
references could well be taken to imply the existence of a lost
Arthurian tale in which Arthur and Uthyr warred against Cawrnur and
his sons (who were probably giants, Welsh cawr).
Hope this helps,
Tom Green
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk - Arthurian Resources
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/concepts/arthlit.htm - bibliography and
analysis of most non-Galfridian Welsh Arthurian literature.

[Hrothgar]

Post by Daniel
So what he (Matthews) did, was snipped out a whole lot of the poem and
swapped lines in different order, until it was barely recognisable.

That's about it, as long as you add in the phrase from David's post
that "Matthews is guilty of an extremely optimistic
translation" -- that is to say, Matthews mixed everything up, chopped
bits out and then mistranslated it so it says what he wants it to
say... To be honest, I could say some very rude words about this kind
of pseudo-scholarship, especially when it is presented to the public
as the 'truth' by a 'historian'(hah!).

Cheers,

Tom Green
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk

[Daniel]

...the main researcher John Matthews claims to have found a 6th

century poem that refers to Arthur.

It is Matthews' claim of discovering a "NEW" poem by Taliesin. Obviously
this statement is false. It seemed to me he had rearrange the lines to
suit his needs, like the sales of his latest books. Obviously he is
cashing it in, because of the new film on Arthur.

I have only read one book of his on the Arthurian legend, and one by his
wife on "Sophia". And I have noticed the disceprancy in some of their
quotes from their sources.

I don't know much about John Matthews, but isn't he the self-proclaimed
modern druid. I hope that he is not a follower of Iolo Morganwg, the
guide who started this neo-druid nonsenses in the first place? Iolo
wrote a lot of rubbish about Druids, who had a tendency to distort the
usual sources.

If he is a follower of Iolo then that would explain his scholarship
about Arthuriana.

Post by Daniel
So what he (Matthews) did, was snipped out a whole lot of the poem and
swapped lines in different order, until it was barely recognisable.

That's about it, as long as you add in the phrase from David's post
that "Matthews is guilty of an extremely optimistic
translation" -- that is to say, Matthews mixed everything up, chopped
bits out and then mistranslated it so it says what he wants it to
say... To be honest, I could say some very rude words about this kind
of pseudo-scholarship, especially when it is presented to the public
as the 'truth' by a 'historian'(hah!).
Cheers,
Tom Green
http://www.arthuriana.co.uk

[Malcolm Martin]

Post by John Adcox
I've talked to John and met him, and while he makes no claim to being a
scholar, he is NOT, as far as I can tell, the type to make something up out of
the blue. He does, however, have a fairly public email address on his web site.
Why not write and ask him?

John

I had a couple of spare moments, and so thought I would try this. For, if
there is a new Arthurian poem that has been discovered, especially one
authored by Taleisin, it would be well worth finding out more. [I think
even Tom Green would accept that :-/) ] So I tried that which seemed to

Post by John Adcox
John and Caitlín are sorry that they cannot enter into correspondence
via e mail on this web-site. This is not because they don't want to hear
from you, but simply because the volume of ordinary mail they already
receive is so great that if they take on any more they won't have any
time to write those books you love! They have no secretary, nor do
they earn enough to employ one, so every letter they get via snail mail
they try to reply to personally.

Do you have a snail-mail address (by private email if you prefer - just
remove the x's in my email address)

The other thing I did come across was the following comment on John's

Post by John Adcox
Now it’s one long round of promotional interviews in which,
astonishingly, John has to assert the existence of a Dark Age King
Arthur – most people seem to imagine that such a figure is medieval
or just legendary!

Perish the thought!!!!

Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[David]

I think it's well worth trying to contact Matthews about this. If he
has concocted this poem from the two extracts that Tom posted, then
it's an appalling and obvious forgery. But maybe that's not the case -
we can at least give Matthews the benefit of the doubt until we know?

Post by Malcolm Martin

Post by John Adcox
I've talked to John and met him, and while he makes no claim to being a
scholar, he is NOT, as far as I can tell, the type to make something up out of
the blue. He does, however, have a fairly public email address on his web site.
Why not write and ask him?

John
I had a couple of spare moments, and so thought I would try this. For, if
there is a new Arthurian poem that has been discovered, especially one
authored by Taleisin, it would be well worth finding out more. [I think
even Tom Green would accept that :-/) ] So I tried that which seemed to

Post by John Adcox
John and Caitlín are sorry that they cannot enter into correspondence
via e mail on this web-site. This is not because they don't want to hear
from you, but simply because the volume of ordinary mail they already
receive is so great that if they take on any more they won't have any
time to write those books you love! They have no secretary, nor do
they earn enough to employ one, so every letter they get via snail mail
they try to reply to personally.

Do you have a snail-mail address (by private email if you prefer - just
remove the x's in my email address)
The other thing I did come across was the following comment on John's

Post by John Adcox
Now it?s one long round of promotional interviews in which,
astonishingly, John has to assert the existence of a Dark Age King
Arthur ? most people seem to imagine that such a figure is medieval
or just legendary!

Perish the thought!!!!
Kind regards
Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[Luminaria]

Post by David
I was looking at one of the sites promoting the new King Arthur film,
and the main researcher John Matthews claims to have found a 6th
century poem that refers to Arthur.
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'
by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'
Does anybody know anything about this???? Unless Matthews really has
found something new (I believe he has a new Arthur book coming out
soon) this seems rather unlikely.

Does he mean Preidu Annwn? Or maybe Cad Goddeu? If he does, he's got his
dates wrong. But I'm sure others are far more well versed in this topic than
I.

But boy, now I want to drag out my Lloyd Alexander! ;-)

Lisa

[David O'Brien]

Does this mean John Matthews has something to do with the new Arthur movie?
Incidentally I read something by John about ten years ago and thought it was
awesome, it was something about Broceliande and Taleisin and in it he wrote
about how they'd found a book written by Taleisin and it was still getting
translated, I never heard anything about that ever again. Was this all
complete bullshit?

Dave Of Tasmania

Post by David
I was looking at one of the sites promoting the new King Arthur film,
and the main researcher John Matthews claims to have found a 6th
century poem that refers to Arthur.
'Let me sing with inspiration
Of the man born of two nations,
Of Rome and of Britain...
... Arthur the blessed
Led his assault from the Great Wall...'
by the 6th century Welsh poet, Taliesin'
Does anybody know anything about this???? Unless Matthews really has
found something new (I believe he has a new Arthur book coming out
soon) this seems rather unlikely.

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

David O'Brien <***@octa4.net.au> wrote:
: Does this mean John Matthews has something to do with the new Arthur movie?

I have the impression that he is the other "technical advisor" on the film
besides Linda Malcor.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

There's talk of delaying the presidential election to keep terrorists from
disrupting the democratic process. Words fail me.