Can the tale wag the dog?

[Malcolm Martin]

Ok, so we have had the question as to who was the greatest knight. (And I
am a bit surprised Cherith didn't champion Kay - or should that be Kay
championing Cherith?!!?)

But what about the other end of the matter? Who was the Knight of the
Round Table "in greatest need of improvement" with regard to his fighting
prowess; and why?

Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[Ian Weir]

Hi, Malcolm--

Brilliant question. Arthurians spend too much time pondering heroes,
which of course throws painful focus onto our own inadequacies. It's
time to get down there with the losers.

For overall incompetence, Dinadan merits consideration. Among the more
"serious" knights, I'd argue that Kay is a consistently glaring
under-performer (despite his champions in this ng). But ultimately I
think you have to go with Aggravayne. Scheming to expose Lancelot's
adultery, he and Mordred took twelve armed knights and burst into the
chamber where Lancelot was abed with Guinevere. Lancelot promptly
killed Aggravayne and other twelve (Mordred fled, wounded), despite
starting from a strategic position that might be considered highly
disadvantageous: i.e. weaponless and nude.

Best
Ian

[Diane L. Schirf]

Post by Ian Weir
Lancelot promptly
killed Aggravayne and other twelve (Mordred fled, wounded), despite
starting from a strategic position that might be considered highly
disadvantageous: i.e. weaponless and nude.

Does it say in the sources he was nude (I'm sorry, I don't remember . .
.)? After all, I think of that scene from Excalibur . . .

[Ian Weir]

Well, actually Malory makes a spectacularly lame attempt to sidestep
the question:

"For, as the Freynshhe booke seyth, the quene and sir Launcelot were
togydirs. And whether they were abed other at other maner of
disportis, me lyste nat thereof make no mencion, for love that tyme was
nat as love ys nowadayes."

But this is just Malory trying desperately to shield his hero from
prying eyes. We -- with our post-modern sagacity, and well-honed
prurient instincts -- can instantly picture what was REALLY going on.

Best
Ian

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

Diane L. Schirf <***@spammindspringnot.com> wrote:
: "Ian Weir" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> Lancelot promptly
:> killed Aggravayne and other twelve (Mordred fled, wounded), despite
:> starting from a strategic position that might be considered highly
:> disadvantageous: i.e. weaponless and nude.
:
: Does it say in the sources he was nude (I'm sorry, I don't remember . .
: .)? After all, I think of that scene from Excalibur . . .

T.H. White says 'naked' was just a synonym for 'weaponless'.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

The problem is, intractability is so common in fandom that enthusiasm is
mistaken for intractability.

[Diane L. Schirf]

Post by PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
:> Lancelot promptly
:> killed Aggravayne and other twelve (Mordred fled, wounded), despite
:> starting from a strategic position that might be considered highly
:> disadvantageous: i.e. weaponless and nude.
: Does it say in the sources he was nude (I'm sorry, I don't remember . .
: .)? After all, I think of that scene from Excalibur . . .
T.H. White says 'naked' was just a synonym for 'weaponless'.

That makes sense to me.

I am remembering one of my favourite Dave Allen skits. A knight comes
home for one night before setting off (on a Crusade?). Obviously, he
wants to make love to his wife. But it takes him hours to take off all
his armor and other stuff. The wife grows visibly bored, then I think
she falls asleep. By the time he's removed the last item, someone has
come to tell him it's time to go. HA!

[xargon]

Post by Malcolm Martin
But what about the other end of the matter? Who was the Knight of the
Round Table "in greatest need of improvement" with regard to his fighting
prowess; and why?

Well, of course that would be Sir Robin: who nearly stood up to the
viscous Chicken of Bristol, among other non-achievements.


I'm not sure if this is "needing improvement", but even in Malory
Pellinore comes across as a bit of comic relief, at least in certain
instances. I do agree that Agravine is a good choice, though: what's
worse than overthrowing Arthur's reign? Playing second fiddle to the guy
who does.

[Sir Fauntleroy]

Post by Malcolm Martin
Ok, so we have had the question as to who was the greatest knight. (And I
am a bit surprised Cherith didn't champion Kay - or should that be Kay
championing Cherith?!!?)
But what about the other end of the matter? Who was the Knight of the
Round Table "in greatest need of improvement" with regard to his fighting
prowess; and why?
Kind regards
Malcolm Martin
London, UK

Why isn't anyone mentioning the fool, Sir Dagonet?

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

Sir Fauntleroy <***@camelot.net> wrote:
: Why isn't anyone mentioning the fool, Sir Dagonet?

Dagonet was one of two of Arthur's band who died in last summer's movie,
and the other was Lancelot. I think that's the only indicator we have of
Dagonet's prowess.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

The problem is, intractability is so common in fandom that enthusiasm is
mistaken for intractability.

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Why isn't anyone mentioning the fool, Sir Dagonet?
Dagonet was one of two of Arthur's band who died in last summer's movie,
and the other was Lancelot. I think that's the only indicator we have of
Dagonet's prowess.

If you're going to count contemporary versions, at the NJ Renaissance
Kingdom (<URL:http://www.NJKingdom.com>) Dagonet is one of the Grail
knights, the other two being Galahad and Gawain. (Unlike the movie, our
Dagonet is a Fool.)

By the way, this year's NJRK is coming up--every Saturday and Sunday in
June, weather permitting.

[Sir Fauntleroy]

Post by PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Why isn't anyone mentioning the fool, Sir Dagonet?
Dagonet was one of two of Arthur's band who died in last summer's movie,
and the other was Lancelot. I think that's the only indicator we have of
Dagonet's prowess.

Dagonet was behorst by LCMT, if I am not mistaken. LCMT was considered the
worst jouster ever.

[Debs]

Post by Malcolm Martin
Ok, so we have had the question as to who was the greatest knight.

(And I

Post by Malcolm Martin
am a bit surprised Cherith didn't champion Kay - or should that be Kay
championing Cherith?!!?)
But what about the other end of the matter? Who was the Knight of the
Round Table "in greatest need of improvement" with regard to his fighting
prowess; and why?
Kind regards
Malcolm Martin
London, UK

Maybe we should refine the question a little. Dinadan was actually
very competent in his fighting skills. He just prefered to avoid
fighting whenever possible. Agravain was as well, but he definitely
requires a crash course in chivalry 101. So maybe that's more the
question we're trying to answer. Who needs to bone up on his chivalric
code and live up to it better?

Debs
Debra Kemp
The House of Pendragon I: The Firebrand

[Malcolm Martin]

Post by Malcolm Martin

Post by Malcolm Martin
But what about the other end of the matter? Who was the Knight of

the

Post by Malcolm Martin
Round Table "in greatest need of improvement" with regard to his

fighting

Post by Malcolm Martin
prowess; and why?
Kind regards
Malcolm Martin
London, UK

Maybe we should refine the question a little. Dinadan was actually
very competent in his fighting skills. He just prefered to avoid
fighting whenever possible. Agravain was as well, but he definitely
requires a crash course in chivalry 101. So maybe that's more the
question we're trying to answer. Who needs to bone up on his chivalric
code and live up to it better?
Debs
Debra Kemp
The House of Pendragon I: The Firebrand

Heyt!!! That's a different question!! Pistols at dawn!! Ooopps, sorry,
wrong time period. Great question none the less, so do we have two quests?

1) Who was the poorest in fighting prowess

2) Who needs to bone up on his chivalric code and live up to it better?

My answer to the second is Lancelot (although Debra's expression "Who
needs to bone up on his chivalric code" is perhaps a bit too close to the
bone here?) for intimacy with his Liege's wife; swearing love for her, yet
going with Elaine, fathering a child by her, deserting her and so breaking
her heart as to lead to her death. Not even Kay did that.


Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[Ian Weir]

Hi, Malcolm--

Intriguing argument, and you make an excellent case -- ironic in the
extreme, given that Lancelot (especially in Malory's redaction) is the
foremost hero of the Round Table. And of course it speaks to a vast
gulf between modern and medieval/chivalric perspectives on women. In
Malory, there just isn't the sense that the abandonment of Elaine
really MATTERS in any ultimate moral way.

Within the mindset of the Morte, betrayal of a fellow knight is a much
bigger deal than the betrayal of anyone else. Because of that, I'm
sure that Malory himself would argue (vociferously) that the knights
who fall most grievously short of chivalric standards are Mordred and
Aggravayne, since they're the ones who are determined to expose
Lancelot's adultery and -- horror of horrors -- provoke a war that will
pit Arthur against Lancelot and split the Round Table. And I think you
could make an argument that Gawain is another huge chivalric
transgressor because of the way he forces Arthur to prosecute the war
-- i.e. he's so blinded by grief/rage over the death of Gareth that he
betrays the ideal of knightly brotherhood.

But if we take a step back, I think you're right. Lancelot betrays his
oath repeatedly. The thwump-thwump-thwump you hear is Malory turning
over in his grave...

Best
Ian

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

Malcolm Martin <***@sorrynospam.co.uk> wrote:
: Lancelot

: swearing love for her, yet
: going with Elaine, fathering a child by her, deserting her and so breaking
: her heart as to lead to her death. Not even Kay did that.

Now can that truly be laid at Lancelot's door when he was tricked into it
- by the deception that Elaine *was* the woman to whom he'd sworn?


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

The problem is, intractability is so common in fandom that enthusiasm is
mistaken for intractability.

[Malcolm Martin]

Post by PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
Now can that truly be laid at Lancelot's door when he was tricked into it
- by the deception that Elaine *was* the woman to whom he'd sworn?

Ahh!! The 'honest belief' defence? If I honestly believe it, that means I
do nothing wrong?

Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by Malcolm Martin

Post by PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
Now can that truly be laid at Lancelot's door when he was tricked into it
- by the deception that Elaine *was* the woman to whom he'd sworn?

Ahh!! The 'honest belief' defence? If I honestly believe it, that means I
do nothing wrong?

In respect of the /facts/?

Yes, in both every religion I know of that doesn't demand animal
sacrifices and in every legal system I know of that applies in at least
one democracy.

Look up /mens rea/.

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

Malcolm Martin <***@sorrynospam.co.uk> wrote:
: On 10 May 2005 06:56:02 -0400, PAUL GADZIKOWSKI wrote the following words:
:>Now can that truly be laid at Lancelot's door when he was tricked into it
:>- by the deception that Elaine *was* the woman to whom he'd sworn?
: Ahh!! The 'honest belief' defence? If I honestly believe it, that means I
: do nothing wrong?

Rather, that the sin in htis case was whoever came up with the plan and
executed it, be it Pelles or Elaine herself. See Kant on ends and means.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

The problem is, intractability is so common in fandom that enthusiasm is
mistaken for intractability.