New to the Legend

[Jenn]

I am pretty new to the Arthur Legend but am completely fascinated...
Where can I find doog information? Books I can read?

[Franklin Cross]

Post by Jenn
I am pretty new to the Arthur Legend but am completely fascinated...
Where can I find doog information? Books I can read?

First take on Le Morte Darthur by Malory. My recommendation is to read a
version that was translated from Caxton et al. Caxton translated it from
unparsable middle english into modern english with old spellings. You want
his version with the modern spellings, if that makes any sense. At first the
structure of the prose takes some getting used to (it is very similar to the
King James Bible in structure and pacing) but once you get going it is quite
enjoyable. Here is a link with the work posted electronically to get you
started: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Mal1Mor.html

If you find it unintelligible, get a modern version with modern prose such
as the volume by Baines.


hahahahahaha... gotta love these chapter titles:

CHAPTER XXVI How tidings came to Arthur that King Rience had overcome eleven
kings, and how he desired Arthur's beard to trim his mantle.

CHAPTER XIV How the eleven kings with their host fought against Arthur and
his host, and many great feats of the war.
CHAPTER XV Yet of the same battle.
CHAPTER XVI Yet more of the same battle.
CHAPTER XVII Yet more of the same battle, and how it was ended by Merlin.

CHAPTER V How at feast of the wedding of King Arthur to Guenever, a white
hart came into the hall, and thirty couple hounds, and how a brachet pinched
the hart which was taken away.

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by Franklin Cross

Post by Jenn
I am pretty new to the Arthur Legend but am completely fascinated...
Where can I find doog information? Books I can read?

First take on Le Morte Darthur by Malory. My recommendation is to read a
version that was translated from Caxton et al. Caxton translated it from
unparsable middle english into modern english with old spellings.

Caxton did not "translate it from ... Middle English". His edition was
printed only about 15 years after Malory wrote. He /did/ completely
reedit the story, transforming Malory's seven novellas into one long
novel by rearranging passages.

It is even possible that Malory himself did the rewrite.

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

John W. Kennedy <***@attglobal.net> wrote:
: Caxton did not "translate it from ... Middle English". His edition was
: printed only about 15 years after Malory wrote. He /did/ completely
: reedit the story, transforming Malory's seven novellas into one long
: novel by rearranging passages.
:
: It is even possible that Malory himself did the rewrite.

I've never seen this hypothesis stated before. Yay, something new! How
popular is it among scholars?


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.

"The king might die. The horse might die. I might die. And who knows,
perhaps the horse will learn to sing hymns."

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Caxton did not "translate it from ... Middle English". His edition was
: printed only about 15 years after Malory wrote. He /did/ completely
: reedit the story, transforming Malory's seven novellas into one long
: novel by rearranging passages.
: It is even possible that Malory himself did the rewrite.
I've never seen this hypothesis stated before. Yay, something new! How
popular is it among scholars?

I don't know, but I know that, the last I heard, the possibility hadn't
been ruled out, since the Winchester ms. is generally believed /not/ to
be Caxton's copy-text, despite the fact that we know he once owned it.
The idea that Caxton was the editor is still the standard theory, and
the one I would bet on, but it is not a dead cert.

[Ian Weir]

Post by John W. Kennedy
Caxton did not "translate it from ... Middle English". His edition was
printed only about 15 years after Malory wrote. He /did/ completely
reedit the story, transforming Malory's seven novellas into one long
novel by rearranging passages.
It is even possible that Malory himself did the rewrite.

Hi, John--

You're right about the non-translation, but I have to take issue with
the rest of your point. It was Eugene Vinaver who revolutionized
Malory studies by asserting that the "Morte" is actually eight (not
seven) separate works. But this was half a century ago, and modern
scholarship has reevaluated this to a considerable extent.

And it just isn't accurate to suggest that the "Morte" can be seen as a
novel, or alternatively as an assemblage of novellas. It's a prose
romance, and almost completely lacks the sustained psychological
realism and organic unity that are hallmarks of the novel.

That's why I'd seriously question whether Malory was involved in
Caxton's re-editing. This argument would seem to imply that he was
trying to "improve" his work by moving toward a novel-style structural
unity -- which is a concept that would have been quite foreign to him.

Best
Ian

[Malcolm Martin]

Jenn

Thus far I see the Group has directed you to Malory, which is indeed a good
read. But a bit late.

Personally I'd refer you to Geoffrey of Monmouth "The History of the Kings
of Britain". He wrote about 1136, and is the first (known) story-teller to
make the story of Arthur into a continuous narrative form. Arthur is found
as Part 7 of his book, and there is an easily found copy of Geoffrey in the
Penguin Classics series, ISBN 0-14-044170-0.

Wace and Lawman (aka Lay/z/aman) followed on from Geoffrey, each of them
adapting Geoffrey as they saw fit. Their versions are together in the
Everyman series ISBN 0-460-87470-1

Chrétien de Troyes also followed on from Geoffrey, although there are
interesting issues about the means of transmission, and how Chrétien
adapted/made up? some of his material. A collection of Chrétien is in the
Everyman Chrétien de Troyes "Arthurian Romances including Perceval" ISBN
0-460-87065-3

If you want to get back beyond Geoffrey's History, then a good place to
start is Leslie Alcock's "Arthur's Britain". This is a bit dated now, but
still has a good introductory discussion of the earlier British source
material pre-Geoffrey. There is a US paperback by Penguin USA ISBN
0-141390697, and I believe Penguin UK also published it. Otherwise it is
fairly easy to pick upon the second hand market for a few pounds/dollars,
either p/b or h/b.

And that does not even start to think about the modern
re-tellings...........

Enjoy

Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London UK

Post by Jenn
I am pretty new to the Arthur Legend but am completely fascinated...
Where can I find doog information? Books I can read?

[F***@aol.com]

If I could be forgiven for a bit of shameless self-promotion, I
recently put together an Arthurian reading list for my company's
website:

http://www.maximumverbosityonline.org/arthurbibliography.html

It's fairly complete, and capsule-reviewed with my smartass comments.
Go nuts.

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by F***@aol.com
If I could be forgiven for a bit of shameless self-promotion, I
recently put together an Arthurian reading list for my company's
http://www.maximumverbosityonline.org/arthurbibliography.html
It's fairly complete, and capsule-reviewed with my smartass comments.
Go nuts.

1) Wagner's "Parsifal" may bear an anti-Semitic reading, and Wagner may
have intended one, but there is nothing explicit.

2) You left out a couple of important ones.

A) The Vulgate, which united the Lancelot and Grail strands in the
figure of Galahad.

B) Charles Williams' "Taliessin Through Logres" and "The Region of the
Summer Stars".

3) I wouldn't describe the Dryden/Purcell "King Arthur" as not "of
interest".
--
John W. Kennedy
"What can be saved without order? and how order?
Compact is becoming contract; man only earns, and pays,
the house outside the City burns but the house within is enslaved.
What without coinage or with coinage can be saved?
O lady, your hand held the bread
and Christ the City spread in the extensor muscles of your thumbs.
Say - can the law live?
can the dead king's head live?
Pray, mother of children, pray for the coins,
pray for Camelot, pray for the king, pray."
-- Charles Williams. "Bors to Elayne: On the King's Coins"

[F***@aol.com]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Post by John W. Kennedy
1) Wagner's "Parsifal" may bear an anti-Semitic reading, and Wagner may
have intended one, but there is nothing explicit.

Agreed; that's why I indicated "supposedly" in the description.

Post by John W. Kennedy
2) You left out a couple of important ones.
A) The Vulgate, which united the Lancelot and Grail strands in the
figure of Galahad.

Mea culpa; part of the concept was to link to affordable editions of
the stories, and I wasn't able to find one for the Vulgate Cycle that
wasn't exorbitantly expensive. It does, of course, bear mentioning.

Post by John W. Kennedy
B) Charles Williams' "Taliessin Through Logres" and "The Region of the
Summer Stars".
3) I wouldn't describe the Dryden/Purcell "King Arthur" as not "of
interest".

In the case of these two, I must bow my head in shame; I am familiar
with their authors, but not the works themselves. Thanks for drawing my
attention to them, though; I look forward to reading them.

[David Adrien Tanguay]

Post by F***@aol.com
If I could be forgiven for a bit of shameless self-promotion, I
recently put together an Arthurian reading list for my company's
http://www.maximumverbosityonline.org/arthurbibliography.html
It's fairly complete, and capsule-reviewed with my smartass comments.
Go nuts.

You're missing tons of stuff, but the big one that I haven't seen
mentioned here is Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I've got a more
complete (but lacking in the smartass comment department) list at
http://www.sentex.ca/~datanguayh/arthur.html,
and Cindy Tittle Moore regulary posts a good list to this forum.

As for the 1500-1800: Tom Thumb isn't interesting? :-)
I haven't read it, but I read that Spenser's "Faerie Queen" is supposedly
Arthurian to some degree. Other than that, though, it *is* a rather
amazing gap given the popularity both before and after. It's probably
Malory's fault.