A strange arthurian archive

[Sir Fauntleroy]

Found this (college?) report in archive.org. Of particular interest, the
description of the saracens. I thought this was a pejorative term for middle
easterners?

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If you left your castle for more than a week, on a quest or maybe to attend
the Pentecostal festivities, several things would happen. First, every evil
Baron in the kingdom would raid your castle looking for documents (Barons
love documents for some reason). They are especially fond of land titles or
ownership papers, because Barons are always interested in the acquisition of
more land. Why this is, nobody knows for sure. Barons are, for the most
part, homosexual bachelors. They have no kin or nuclear families for whom
they needed more land.... they simply want more land. Nobody really knows
why for sure, except for the barons.
Secondly, saracens would invade the castle and build nests to procreate
in. Saracens are hideous winged creatures with protruding, fanged mouths,
bull-like horns, glowering eyes, and sizable, razor sharp claws. Try to
imaging a cross between a praying mantis, a bat, and a veloci raptor.
Terrible terrible things, these saracens. Saracens are sentient and can
display human intelligence, like Sir Palomides the saracen from King
Arthur's court.
After the saracens come griffins and weaverns. A griffin is a cross
between a lion and a falcon, a weavern is a cross between a dragon and a
basilisk. The point is that each of these creatures, like the saracens, are
winged, nest building, egg laying, reeking villains. The only difference is
that griffins and weaverns are not sentient, so they sh-- and pi-- all over
the place, too. Think of the saracens as unwanted guests who come for the
weekend and eat all your food, but don't really put you out all that much.
Think of the griffins and weaverns as party guest who totally demolish your
house and have to be driven out if they are expected to leave.
Next, Romans and possibly giants come in to pillage any weaponry that
might be laying around. The questing beast might make an appearance, too.
Finally, if you're really lucky, a dragon will move in and you won't
discover him until you go down to your cellar to retrieve a bottle of wine
or some ice. The dragon generally uses the cellar of a castle for
hibernation. He can only be slain by a very brave knight, but will usually
just leave if you ask him too. The other villainy must be fought and driven
out of the house. Griffins usually scurry away when you attack. Weaverns
will put up a fight, but usually nothing a gentleman warrior cannot handle.
Saracens, on the other hand, will charge in packs if spooked. They are very
protective of their young and suspicious of humans, so beware of them. If
it's saracens, you should probably bring a posse with you, and come heavily
armed. Romans are, for the most part, as weak and wimpish as Cornish
knights. Giants are difficult to drive out, but they can usually be
outwitted.

[Malcolm Martin]

Post by Sir Fauntleroy
Found this (college?) report in archive.org. Of particular interest, the
description of the saracens. I thought this was a pejorative term for middle
easterners?

Unless Malory's Saracens are a surviving remnant
of previously original Saxons.


Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[Ian Weir]

Hi, Malcolm--

I'm intrigued but puzzled by your suggestion. Are you suggesting that
Malory was drawing on sources in which Saxons were perceived as the
enemy? But as far as I know all of Malory's direct sources -- like
Malory himself -- were sufficiently tone-deaf historically as to assume
that Arthur himself was English, i.e. a Saxon. Or am I missing your
point completely?

Ian

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

Ian Weir <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
: I'm intrigued but puzzled by your suggestion. Are you suggesting that
: Malory was drawing on sources in which Saxons were perceived as the
: enemy? But as far as I know all of Malory's direct sources -- like
: Malory himself -- were sufficiently tone-deaf historically as to assume
: that Arthur himself was English, i.e. a Saxon. Or am I missing your
: point completely?

I understand that the Old French Vulgate was one of Malory's sources, and
in that (of which I have read only an abridged version) there is at least
one battle beween Arthur's forces and invading Saxons.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

"One of these days, Ozzel - pow! Straight to the moon."

[Malcolm Martin]

Post by Ian Weir
Hi, Malcolm--
I'm intrigued but puzzled by your suggestion. Are you suggesting that
Malory was drawing on sources in which Saxons were perceived as the
enemy? But as far as I know all of Malory's direct sources -- like
Malory himself -- were sufficiently tone-deaf historically as to assume
that Arthur himself was English, i.e. a Saxon. Or am I missing your
point completely?
Ian

Ian

I haven't researched it throughly, because I am still in the process (as I
have been, on and off, over the last few years) of reading into and around
the history of the period 400-600 CE - archaelogically as well as older and
more modern theories about what was taking place. And some aspects of
those appear to me to resonate with the older tales, whether those are of
Geoffrey or Malory or others in between.

One aspect of Malory that did puzzle me when I was reading him, was his
reference to Saracens. Obviously, at the time Malory is writing he could
have had actual Saracens in mind - possibly to add to the spice of the
story - but I wondered if his Saracens are masking an earlier rendering of
the story, with Saxons being the previous incarnation (even if there is
only an indirect link or links between Malory and those much earlier
Sources).

A couple of reasons for my thinking. In Book 1, at the end of Chapter 18,
we read of 'people that were lawless as well as Saracens, a forty
thousand', coming into the lands of the 11 kings (who had attacked Arthur)
burning and slaying all the people they come by and lying seige on the
castle of Wandesborow. Leaving aside the issue of numbers for teh time
being, this neither suits historical Saracens, nor adds to Malory's story
if we are meant to understand actual Saracens. But if (and I do say 'if')
there is a remembrance or echo here of earlier stories, then the concept of
a Saxon invasion of Caltic lands whilst there is an internal Celtic fight
going on, makes much more sense.

The other is Palomides the Saracen. Quite a battler, and ranks along with
so many of the other knights, but distinguished from them by being of a
different ethnic group - a Saracen. Not the only one, as his brother
Safer is around, but the only Saracen who seems to be one of the fighters
in a major way. Whereas in the Welsh tales there is Osla Big-Knife, one
who I have always taken to be a Saxon, who appears to be one of the Welsh
fighters. I am not suggesting that there is a direct correspondence
between Palomides and Osla, but that in both of the two reasonably
homogenous groups (Malory's Knights and Welsh Sources' Arthur's Men), there
is, in each, an individual who appears to be of a different ethnic origin,
and 'the Saracen' in Malory may be an echo of 'the Saxon' in a much
earlier set of tales.

Incidentally, I have never seen Arthur in Malory as English - more Celtic
(conceived in Tintagel, first feast at Caerleon) who ruled, in Malory, over
England, Wales, Scotland etc. But that may be my reading into the text
from knowledge gained elsewhere, aned i would need to look at the text of
Malory again in more detail..

Finally, Paul writes thet in <the Old French Vulgate ........there is at
least one battle beween Arthur's forces and invading Saxons> Can Paul or
anyone else give further details? And does this passage (or similar
pasages involving Saxons or Saracens) relate to any passage in Malory?


Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK

[John W. Kennedy]

Post by Malcolm Martin
One aspect of Malory that did puzzle me when I was reading him, was his
reference to Saracens. Obviously, at the time Malory is writing he could
have had actual Saracens in mind - possibly to add to the spice of the
story - but I wondered if his Saracens are masking an earlier rendering of
the story, with Saxons being the previous incarnation (even if there is
only an indirect link or links between Malory and those much earlier
Sources).

In the Vulgate, Joseph of Arimathea finds Britain entirely inhabited by
Saracens!

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

John W. Kennedy <***@attglobal.net> wrote:
: In the Vulgate, Joseph of Arimathea finds Britain entirely inhabited by
: Saracens!

Perhaps the word was being used as a synonym for 'heathens'.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

The problem is, intractability is so common in fandom that enthusiasm is
mistaken for intractability.

[Ian Weir]

Hi, Malcolm--

This is really interesting, but I'd come at it from a different angle.
As for the "40,000 Saracens" reference, this comes in a book that
Malory is drawing from the 13th Century French "Suite du Merlin." The
Suite is set in the fairy-land of Logres, and Malory is transposing
events into a "real" English landscape (i.e. a highly romanticized
version, but with an attempt at realistic English geography). I would
suspect that the 13th Century French author is importing Saracens into
Logres as useful (if anachronistic) villains, given the backdrop of the
Crusades -- i.e. they just make good bogeymen.

As for Palomides, both in Malory and his source (if memory serves --
which it doesn't, always! -- most if not all of the Palomides stuff
comes from the French Prose "Tristan") treat Palomides as a Saracen who
is nonetheless ennobled by his knightly pursuits -- i.e. an
illustration of the fact that the code of chivalry can redeem even an
arch-enemy of Christianity. Because of this, I'd argue that it's
crucial that Palomides is a Muslim -- the redemption of a Saxon
wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.

Best
Ian

[Sir Fauntleroy]

Post by Ian Weir
Hi, Malcolm--
This is really interesting, but I'd come at it from a different angle.
As for the "40,000 Saracens" reference, this comes in a book that
Malory is drawing from the 13th Century French "Suite du Merlin." The
Suite is set in the fairy-land of Logres, and Malory is transposing
events into a "real" English landscape (i.e. a highly romanticized
version, but with an attempt at realistic English geography). I would
suspect that the 13th Century French author is importing Saracens into
Logres as useful (if anachronistic) villains, given the backdrop of the
Crusades -- i.e. they just make good bogeymen.
As for Palomides, both in Malory and his source (if memory serves --
which it doesn't, always! -- most if not all of the Palomides stuff
comes from the French Prose "Tristan") treat Palomides as a Saracen who
is nonetheless ennobled by his knightly pursuits -- i.e. an
illustration of the fact that the code of chivalry can redeem even an
arch-enemy of Christianity. Because of this, I'd argue that it's
crucial that Palomides is a Muslim -- the redemption of a Saxon
wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.
Best
Ian

Good point

[PAUL GADZIKOWSKI]

Malcolm Martin <***@sorrynospam.co.uk> wrote:
: Finally, Paul writes thet in <the Old French Vulgate ........there is at
: least one battle beween Arthur's forces and invading Saxons> Can Paul or
: anyone else give further details? And does this passage (or similar
: pasages involving Saxons or Saracens) relate to any passage in Malory?

From my single reading of _The Lancelot-Grail Reader_, Lacy et al., I
recall that there is a battle with Saxons at a place called Saxon Rock. I
think I recall the text relating that it was called that only after the
battle, because that's as far as Arthur's forces let them get. This battle
occurs during the initial soap opera/sex comedy of Lancelot and Guenevere
taking a shine to each other while their first assignation is conspired
toward by Prince Galahaut and the lady of Malehaut. Meanwhile Arthur has a
schoolboy crush on the lady of the castle of Saxon Rock who betrays him to
be captured by the Saxons, which puts a serious crimp in the Britons'
battle plans. The Lady of the Lake shows up to put in a good word with
Guenevere for Lancelot, too. Lancelot is captured by the Saxons, but gets
released because he's so sensitive it's driven him mad, but gets cured by
true love's kiss. From there it gets rather involved. There may be more
instances of Saxons in the cycle than this battle, but if they made it
into the abridged _Reader_ I don't recall them.


Paul Gadzikowski, ***@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.

The problem is, intractability is so common in fandom that enthusiasm is
mistaken for intractability.