Post by Malcolm MartinOn Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:44:04 -0400, "martymonster"
Post by martymonster2. What is the likelihood of a 'Guinevere' entity being a Pict, in this NG's
opinion? Do the movie makers have a leg to stand on?
Which Guinevere? 1, 2 or 3?
a) I do not have the Triads to hand, but are there any clues as to the
possible racial antecedents of these Three from the names of the fathers
listed there?
"Three Great Queens of Arthur: Gwenhwyfar daughter of Cywryd Gwent, and
Gwenhwyfar daughter of Gwythyr son of Greidiol, and Gwenhwyfar daughter of
Gogfran the giant."
for Cywryd Gwent, Bartrum 'A Welsh Classical Dictionary' has "See TYP
p.325 for a discussion on the proper form of the name" In the light of the
other thread here on the lack of availability of TYP, is anybody able to
help with the relevant TYP quote or information?
for Gwythyr son of Greidiol, Bartrum has (Legendary), with reference to him
(and the basis of his story) from Culhwch & Olwen and a genealogy in
Bartrum's Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts at p 89 [ByA $22].
Tom Green has dealt in another post with Gogran (or Ogfran) Gawr, with
Bartrum seeming to have two prime candidates for his 'home' at at Knucklas
Castle near Knighton, and Aberysgyr in Brycheiniog, amongst other
possibilities.
Thus far probably not much likelihood of a Pictish ancestry for Guinevere.
But, from the French Romances there is an alternative father: Leodegan
(Malory's Leodegrance) of Carmelide [alt Tamelide], who also gave rise to
the False Guinevere whose (supposed) father is Leodegan's Steward,
Cleodalis:
(from http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/TEAMS/mertame.htm)
"Hit fill on a nyght that the Kynge Leodogan lay by the quene, and that
nyght upon hir he begat a doughter that was cleped Gonnore whan she was
baptised, the whiche after was of merveilouse bewté and the wif of Kynge
Arthur. And this lady that was wif to Kynge Leodogan was a goode lady and
holy of livinge and hadde an usage to arise on nyghtes and go to chirche to
sey Matyns and to heere all servyse to messe.
"That nyght that the quene hadde conceyved Gonnore her doughter, she yede
to Matyns and com by the stiwardes wif and fonde her slepynge and wolde not
her awake; but wente and lefte her lyinge aslepe, and wente forth alone to
the cherche that was faste by, with hir sawter in her hande. And the kynge,
that longe hadde desired to speke with that lady, arose as soone as the
quene was gon, and dide oute the taperes that were brennynge and than wente
to ly by the stiwardes wif.
"And whan the lady felte oon lyinge by her, she asked what he was, all
affraied; and than he ansuerde how it was he, and bad hir be stille, and
seide yef she made eny noyse she sholde be deed. The lady her deffended
inowgh as with speche, but she durste not crye ne make no noyse; but litill
availed her defense for the kynge by hir lay; and on hir he gat a doughter,
the same nyght that he hadde geten Gonnore on his wif.
"And whan the quene was delyvered, ther was founde upon the childes reynes
a litill crosse like a crowne for a kynge; and as soone as the quene was
delyvered, the stiwardes wif began to traveyle, and hadde a doughter of
feire bewté, and [she] was so like the quene's doughter that oon cowde not
knowe oon from an-other but by the crosse upon her reynes. And eche of hem
hight Gonnere in bapteme; "
The story is continued in:
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/marargfr.htm
"A ..........plot is being formed against Gonnore, this one involving
Gonnore's half-sister, the false Gonnore, who is the illegitimate daughter
of Leodegan and the wife of Cleodalis (Leodegan's seneschal). Because
Leodegan has dishonored his seneschal by sleeping with his wife, he has
many enemies among Cleodalis's friends and kin who are eager for a chance
to get back at him. Unbeknownst to Cleodalis, a group of them plan to
kidnap Gonnore and put the false Gonnore in her place. "
Leodegan's enemy is Ryon "King of Ireland". Darrah in "Paganism in
Arthurian Romance" p 222 suggests Leodegan is "a personage with Welsh
antecedents as Ocuran [Ogfran?] Gawr, and that Carmelide is to be located
in South/SouthWest Wales with 'Ireland' effectively being understood as the
South West Wales area, where the Irish presence is well attested.
Even if the French Romances do have a basis in fact (a matter well open to
question) I wouldn't necessarily hold to this identification, with the
possibility of Ryon coming more from the North of Wales. But it would seem
to suggest that Leodegan is more likely to be of Welsh than Pictish
descent.
Kind regards
Malcolm Martin
London, UK