Discussion:
Sources for Gregory of Monmouth (2) - Silchester
(too old to reply)
Malcolm Martin
2006-02-04 17:22:21 UTC
Permalink
At the very start of the Arthur section of GoM, he writes:

"After the death of Utherpendragon, the leaders of the Britons assembled
from their various provinces in the town of Silchester and there suggested
to Dubricus, The Archbishop of the City of the Legions that as their king he
should crown Arthur, the son of Uther".

In this sentence, in its context of being the start of the immediately
following text, there are four things that interest me. These are:

1) What has lead GoM to use 'Silchester'

2) What has led GoM to use 'Dubricus'

3) Given that the following text leads up to the Battle of Baden Hill
(which, from Gildas, took place circa 500CE?) what has led GoM to link
Dubricus with Silchester at around, or shortly before, that date?

These second and third questions I intend to leave on one side for this
post, and concentrate only on the Silchester question. In so doing, I
recognise that longer term members of this NG will know that I have advanced
some of these arguments before - I ask your forbearance.

As at the 12th Century, and as far as I can ascertain, Silchester was a
deserted ruin. I am not aware that it had any connection with Robert of
Gloucester, indeed, it seems to have been abandoned by the Britons at least
400 years (and probably longer) before, and not been occupied by the Saxons.
As John Wacher puts it "From Goring up to Dorchester on the north bank of
the Thames, there was an area of intensive early Saxon settlements, which
contrasts strongly with the almost complete lack of similar occupation in
and around the Silchester area.....................We might
conclude.....that life at Silchester lingered on through the fifth and early
sixth centuries until the next phase of Saxon expansion began in the middle
of the sixth century, after which it was extinguished for ever." ["The Towns
of Roman Britain" Book Club Associates 1976 p 276-277] or "one of the few
Roman cities in Britain that did not evolve into a major medieval and modern
city" [Snyder 'Age of Tyrants' 1998 p155]

Thus there seems to me to be no intrinsic reason related to GoM, or
extrinsic reason related to his time period, as to why he should select
Silchester as the starting place The only literary possibility I can think
of is the concept of the 'unknown' arising from a disregarded place to
become king. But GoM's Arthur is not here an unknown. His text makes it
clear that he is known by all, that he is to be King, and that he is known
as the son of Uther.

If , however, one considers what Silchester was at about 500CE - it was the
effective former Roman main town of Southern Britain. Looking at a map of
Roman roads (which would still have been in existence at that time)
virtually all roads lead to Silchester - or as GoM writes "the leaders of
the Britons assembled from their various provinces in the town of
Silchester". Moreover, it was a British enclave in this area. This is seen
by:

1) lack of Saxon graves [set out above]

2) linear dykes facing away from the town [O'Neil 'Antiquity xviii 113 cited
Wacher op cit]

3) preservation of alignment of all major roads from Silchester for
considerable distances except that to Dorchester (with implied British/Saxon
frontier by Padworth) [O'Neil op cit]

4) Ogam inscribed stone dated between 450CE [Sir Ifor Williams] to 700CE
[Prof Kenneth Jackson]

5) Late Roman and finds with western Celtic affinities [Boon 'Med Arch' iii
79 cited Wacher op cit] [also referred to Snyder op cit p156]

6) a consideration and mapping of place name evidence [Charles Thomas
"Christianity in Roman Britain to AD 500" Batsford 1981 chap 10]

If this overall analysis of Silchester in post Roman Britain is correct - ie
a known city, with good transport access to British controlled areas, which
itself is still known (and remembered?) as a major city under British or
Romano-British control, but one that is out of use by the time GoM wrote,
then we have to consider why GoM used it in his text:

a) GoM took it at random. I have difficulty with this, and for two reasons.

i) First, (following Collingwood 'Idea of History' if I remember
correctly) first consider the reason 'why' GoM is writing the Arthurian
section of his book. Here I suggest that, and after considering the
Arthurian section in the context of the rest of his book, that his general
purpose is to elevate Arthur - too many examples to give here, but I think
that in looking at GoM we must ask, and answer, that question if we are to
properly look at what he is saying. And, within that general purpose and
the context of Part 7, even that first sentence, appears to be designed to
elevate Arthur. This is shown by the sense given by 'the leaders of the
Britons', 'assembled' , the use of 'Dubricus, Archbishop of the City of the
Legions', making him 'king' (not dux bellorum), and the reference to his
parentage - all of these work this way.

ii)And this leads to the second reason - for amongst that immediate
surrounding co-text, the use here of 'Silchester' as a random choice does
not fit - but as another chosen aspect to elevate Arthur, it fits both with
its surrounding co-text, and GoM's larger purpose, as shown by the wider
context of Part 7.

b) I think we can dismiss the possibility that GoM had access to 20th
Century academic research. (Since I am seeking to look at his text, this
may be shown by the fact that the accuracies of his prophecies falls away
after his own time........................leading one to doubt that he had
access to 20th century thought and records!!)

c) GoM had access to an oral memories of the post Roman Romano-British
centre at Silchester. Whilst this is possible, given that he is writing at
least 400 years after the last known Celtic element (taking Jackson's dating
of the Ogam stone) and possibly longer, I have difficulty with accepting
that such an oral memory would have survived so long and in such a detailed
way as set out in the sentence quoted. More likely, I suggest, along the
lines of oral memory and story research [sorry, no citation here - I cannot
remember where I read this] that the location of the event would be
relocated, by story teller after story teller, from place to other (more
important, local to the story teller) place over a time period of such
length - unless the story had become so fixed early in its telling, that the
audience would not accept any variation. And if that is the case, then we
have an oral memory which probably goes to the time when Silchester was
local and important (ie pre mid sixth century), with Silchester being fixed,
regardless of its subsequent decline.

d) GoM had access to a written source, which itself preserved an original
story, whether in previous written or oral form, that dated back to the time
when Silchester was still a British town ie before mid 6th century.

Conclusion

By an analysis of GoM's text itself, and consideration of that text in the
light of current archaeological research and thought, the most likely
probability is that GoM had access to a written source or accurate oral
source relating to the relevance of Silchester in post Roman Britain.
Please note this is not an argument for or against the historical existence
of Arthur, nor an argument for the accuracy of GoM's 'coronation' - instead,
it is merely looking at the question as to whether GoM had sources or not
and, whether we can consider that question from an examination of the text,
rather than the GoM 'I've got a book' vs. WoN 'It's all lies' fruitless
debate

In the next post, I shall look slightly further at the possibility of oral
memory, again possibly dating back to circa 500CE, embedded in his text, and
how GoM may have adapted his text for his own purposes. But that may not be
for a few days or even longer, depending on my workload next week.

Kind regards

Malcolm
patrick boyd
2006-02-05 08:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Malcolm Martin wrote:

[... fascinating stuff snipped]
Post by Malcolm Martin
Conclusion
By an analysis of GoM's text itself, and consideration of that text in the
light of current archaeological research and thought, the most likely
probability is that GoM had access to a written source or accurate oral
source relating to the relevance of Silchester in post Roman Britain.
Please note this is not an argument for or against the historical existence
of Arthur, nor an argument for the accuracy of GoM's 'coronation' - instead,
it is merely looking at the question as to whether GoM had sources or not
and, whether we can consider that question from an examination of the text,
rather than the GoM 'I've got a book' vs. WoN 'It's all lies' fruitless
debate
In the next post, I shall look slightly further at the possibility of oral
memory, again possibly dating back to circa 500CE, embedded in his text, and
how GoM may have adapted his text for his own purposes. But that may not be
for a few days or even longer, depending on my workload next week.
Kind regards
Malcolm
Sincere thanks, Malcolm. Very, very interesting. I was hoping there was
some reliable textual analysis/source criticism done on the work of
Geoffrey (cousin of Gregory :-)) that indicated references consistent
with an earlier source. I find your points convincing and there well may
be more fire under this particular smoke.

But do you suppose Geoffrey's audience knew that Silchester was a Celtic
settlement and never a Saxon one, and for this reason Geoffrey
associated Arthur with Silchester to lend him Celtic credibility.

Also, do you know what actual word Geoffrey used to indicate Silchester?

Thanks again for the work you have put into this reply and the breadth
of understanding you present so articulately in this area.

-- patrick
Malcolm Martin
2006-02-05 08:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Patrick

Thanks.

i) Gregory - I could say that I just wanted to check if anyone was
reading.............but the truth would be otherwise.........Ooops. Just
goes to show the truth of the old adage (as do one or two other slips in
those first two posts) - "before pressing 'send', engage brian"

ii) > But do you suppose Geoffrey's audience knew that Silchester was a
Celtic
settlement and never a Saxon one, and for this reason Geoffrey associated
Arthur with Silchester to lend him Celtic credibility
No, probably not. I think GoM used Silchester because it was in his source
(for this early part of his life of Arthur) and also (possibly) because he
knew that it had been a major British centre, and so saw no reason to change
this to something bigger or better.

iii) > Also, do you know what actual word Geoffrey used to indicate
Silchester?

No. Unfortunately I do not have a Latin copy of Geoffrey, and so when I
have needed the Latin I have had to ask on the net. Most frustrating, but
I haven't yet been able to pick up a Latin copy of Geoffrey. Maybe in this
group Tom Green <***@hotmail.com> has a copy (or access thereto)
and would provide the answer?
Thanks again for the work you have put into this reply and the breadth of
understanding you present so articulately in this area.
Thanks for that. Having read it again, once it was posted on to the NG I
realised there are one or two aspects I should have re-worded to make my
points clearer, but brian just didn't see them beforehand pressed
............'send'......

Kind regards

Malcolm
p***@hotmail.com
2006-02-28 19:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Malcolm Martin
iii) > Also, do you know what actual word Geoffrey used to indicate
Silchester?
No. Unfortunately I do not have a Latin copy of Geoffrey, and so when I
have needed the Latin I have had to ask on the net. Most frustrating, but
I haven't yet been able to pick up a Latin copy of Geoffrey. Maybe in this
and would provide the answer?
A couple of weeks late, but I happened to be lurking and to have a copy
of Griscom borrowed from the library in front of me. The text of the
passage in question reads:

Defuncto igitur utherpendragon. continuerunt ex diuersis prouinciis
proceres brotonum in civitatem *silcestrie* ad dubricium urbis legionum
archiepiscopum.

"Silcestrie" looks like a medieval Latin genitive (the classical Latin
being "Silcestriae") to which the nominative would be "Silcestria".

(In the Welsh chronicle from Jesus LXI paralleled with the Latin in
Griscom, the town is Kaer Vyddav.)

Patrick Brown
patrick boyd
2006-02-28 21:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Malcolm Martin
iii) > Also, do you know what actual word Geoffrey used to indicate
Silchester?
No. Unfortunately I do not have a Latin copy of Geoffrey, and so when I
have needed the Latin I have had to ask on the net. Most frustrating, but
I haven't yet been able to pick up a Latin copy of Geoffrey. Maybe in this
and would provide the answer?
A couple of weeks late, but I happened to be lurking and to have a copy
of Griscom borrowed from the library in front of me. The text of the
Defuncto igitur utherpendragon. continuerunt ex diuersis prouinciis
proceres brotonum in civitatem *silcestrie* ad dubricium urbis legionum
archiepiscopum.
"Silcestrie" looks like a medieval Latin genitive (the classical Latin
being "Silcestriae") to which the nominative would be "Silcestria".
(In the Welsh chronicle from Jesus LXI paralleled with the Latin in
Griscom, the town is Kaer Vyddav.)
Patrick Brown
Thanks Patrick. I just wondered if there was any clue in the text as to
whether his sources for this might have been British or Roman. It would
be easy enough to pick a centrally located known Roman town and allocate
it as the meeting place for this appointment. But if it was a British
source, it might have more weight.

Of course, if he is writing in Latin, he would probably just give the
town its Latin name, regardless of the source.

-- patrick boyd
p***@hotmail.com
2006-03-01 00:20:39 UTC
Permalink
I think one indication of whether Geoffrey was using a Welsh or Latin
source is to compare it to the Welsh versions and see how easily they
find Welsh equivalents to the characters' names. Griscom, as I said,
runs a translation of the so-called Brut Tysilio alongside the Latin,
so we can compare. For example, Cassibelanus comfortably becomes
Caswallawn, and we know there were independent Welsh traditions about
Casswallawn because we can read them in the Triads and the Mabinogi, so
perhaps Geoffrey had a Welsh source for him, but Brutus becomes
Bryttys, a transparent phonetic transliteration from Latin, and as far
as I know there's no independent Welsh tradition about him, so we can
probably assume he came from a Latin source.

Utherpendragon and Arthur are very close to Welsh names already, and
they slip into Ythr Ben Dragwn and Arthyr with a minimum of fuss.
Ygerna becomes Eigr, close but obviously not a mere transliteration
from the Latin, so there were probably native traditions about her that
Geoffrey could have been drawing on. I think it's reasonable that
Geoffrey might have had a Welsh source for this part of the Historia,
or at least Welsh analogues may have existed at the time.

I have become convinced recently that Geoffrey invented a great deal
less than he's given credit for. Some of the sources for the
Cassibelanus/Caesar story are fairly obvious - Orosius, Bede, Nennius,
Latin sources all - but there are other parts that can't be put down to
any of those. Cassibelanus's nephew Androgeus derives ultimately from
Mandubracius from Caesar's De Bello Gallico (which it's fairly obvious
Geoffrey didn't have access to), and his name in the HRB comes, I
think, from Orosius or Bede - but his Welsh name, Afarwy, is completely
unrelated to Androgeus, suggesting an independent Welsh tradition. His
other nephew, Tenvantius (Teneufan), is the father of Kymbelinus, the
historical Cunobelinus - and its only through coins that we've
discovered that Cunobelinus's father was called Tasciovanus. That looks
quite close to my untrained eye, close enough that surely Geoffrey
could not have just made it up. That suggests that Tasciovanus was
remembered by the Britons, either through an unbroken tradition or via
a lost Latin history, but it's different enough to make me think that
it's been passed down orally, in Welsh, for at least part of that time,
and perhaps put into writing and miscopied (the source of the first
n?), before being Latinised by Geoffrey. Then there's Cassibelanus's
brother Nennius (Nynniaw), whose Welsh name doesn't suggest a mere
copying of the Latin, but rather, possibly, a Latinisation of the
Welsh. So I think there's at least one Welsh source underlying parts of
the Cassibelanus/Caesar story.

We go on to Kymbelinus, who has been long recognised as the historical
Cunobelinus. Geoffrey says he was brought up in Rome under Augustus,
was very friendly to Rome, and willingly paid tribute. This not only
places him spot on chronologically (he's supposed to have taken power
ca. AD 9, in the latter years of Augustus's reign), which I think is
unlikely to be a coincidence, but it's also quite plausible. We know
from Strabo that Britain in the late Augustan period wasn't considered
worth conquering because the Romans made so much money off import and
export duties from the Britons, so a lot of British money was going to
Rome at the time Geoffrey says Kimbelinus was paying willing tribute.
The Romans were also known to take young men of the ruling families of
friendly powers as obsides or diplomatic hostages, and we know from
Cunobelinus's coins that he was pro-Roman and probably Roman-supported
- his coins call him Rex and incorporate Roman motifs. John Creighton,
in Coins and Power in Late Iron Age Britain, uses the imagery on the
coins of Tincomarus, a near-contemporary British king, comparing them
to those of Juba II of Numidia, to argue that he was brought up in Rome
as an obses. I think it's entirely plausible that Cunobelinus could
have been too, and that Geoffrey had access to a source or tradition
that recorded this.

We know from Dio Cassius that two of Cunobelinus's sons, Togodumnus and
Caratacus, led the initial resistance to the Roman invasion, that
Togodumnus died early on, and from Tacitus that Caratacus kept up the
fight. Geoffrey preserves a tradition that two of Kymbelinus's sons,
Guiderius and Arviragus, led the initial resistance, Guiderius died
early on, and Arviragus, after an initial rapprochement with Claudius,
later went back to war against the Romans. The brothers' names are so
different that Geoffrey clearly couldn't have read Dio or Tacitus, but
the similarity of story is striking enough to suggest, again, an
independent tradition. The Welsh versions of the brothers' names are
Gwydr, obviously the same name as Guiderius, and Gweirydd - completely
different from Arviragus, which was lifted from Juvenal, perhaps
deliberately substituted for a Latinisation of Gweirydd because the two
names might otherwise look too similar. A (Welsh) tradition of the
heroic brothers Gwydr and Gweirydd (compare the brothers Brennus and
Belinus, or Ferrex and Porrex, both pairs of names that alliterate)
seems to me more likely than a (Latin) tradition of the brothers
Guiderius and Arviragus, and certainly more likely than Geoffrey making
up a story that is so similar to known history.

I've really only looked closely at the Roman invasions period, but
there's evidence there that Geoffrey had sources that reflected real
history. Whether those were unbroken traditions from the 1st century BC
to the 12th AD, or only developed after the Britons were exposed to
Latin histories during the period of Roman rule, I'm not qualified to
say, and I still wouldn't say this makes Geoffrey a reliable or
accurate historian, but for this period at least, he isn't the
fantasizer he's made out to be.

Patrick Brown
patrick boyd
2006-03-01 23:47:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
I think one indication of whether Geoffrey was using a Welsh or Latin
source is to compare it to the Welsh versions and see how easily they
find Welsh equivalents to the characters' names. Griscom, as I said,
runs a translation of the so-called Brut Tysilio alongside the Latin,
so we can compare. For example, Cassibelanus comfortably becomes
Caswallawn, and we know there were independent Welsh traditions about
Casswallawn because we can read them in the Triads and the Mabinogi, so
perhaps Geoffrey had a Welsh source for him, but Brutus becomes
Bryttys, a transparent phonetic transliteration from Latin, and as far
as I know there's no independent Welsh tradition about him, so we can
probably assume he came from a Latin source.
[snip fascinating stuff...]
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Patrick Brown
Thanks for taking the time to make such a complete and informative
reply, Patrick. Food for thought indeed.

What do you think the chances are of any of these other sources ever
coming to light? Has archaeology, to your knowledge, ever been sucessful
in uncovering any written (ie non-engraved) pre-Galfridian sources?

-- patrick boyd
p***@hotmail.com
2006-03-02 18:59:15 UTC
Permalink
It doesn't look especially likely. We have the Historia Brittonum, the
Welsh Triads and genealogies, Bede's Ecclesiastical History, the Aeneid
and its derivatives, and Christian Latin histories like Eusebius and
Orosius, and I don't know how much work has been done to identify
exactly what relationship the HRB has to them. The Four Branches of the
Mabinogi and other early Welsh stories like Culhwch and Olwen appear to
bear very little relation to the HRB, but with a bit of digging I'm
sure some parallels might be found. All the Welsh Bruts, as far as I
know, are derivative of Geoffrey, although they probably also draw on
Welsh analogues, as I've argued from the personal names. I think it's
very likely that Geoffrey had a Welsh (or Breton) source for parts of
the HRB, but if we haven't found it now I suspect we may never find it.
Manuscript survival is pretty precarious.

Patrick Brown

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