Discussion:
Newbie...
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jojo
2005-06-24 14:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Although I over 40, I'm new to the Arthurian legends. I've always heard of
them, but never read.
I am currently reading the series by Mary Stewart.

A question I have is maybe complicated.
That is the question of reality vs. fantasy. Mary Stewart clearly states her
work is a work of fiction,
but I understand there is a great deal of conflict as to whether Arthur was
real or not.

Can anyone direct me to a site that better explains this?
Is it just Arthur, or are all of these peoples existence in question?

Thanks,
jojo
Ian Weir
2005-06-24 15:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by jojo
Hi,
Although I over 40, I'm new to the Arthurian legends. I've always heard of
them, but never read.
I am currently reading the series by Mary Stewart.
A question I have is maybe complicated.
That is the question of reality vs. fantasy. Mary Stewart clearly states her
work is a work of fiction,
but I understand there is a great deal of conflict as to whether Arthur was
real or not.
Can anyone direct me to a site that better explains this?
Is it just Arthur, or are all of these peoples existence in question?
Hi, Jojo--

Welcome aboard. And no, there is no conflict at all as to the
historicity of Arthur. All right-thinking persons are unanimously
agreed that Arthur was legendary, a fictional construct who
subsequently crossed over into supposed history. A few clamorous sorts
argue the opposite, but they are motivated by sheer wickedness and
should not be listened to. No, really. Trust me.

It's been years and years since I read Mary Stewart, so I'm dredging up
vague and foggy memories of the "others" you refer to. Certainly
figures like Ambrosius Aurealanis (whom I just misspelled, didn't I?)
and Vortigern are historical. But figures associated with Arthur's
court -- the Merlins, Viviens, Morgan le Fays (Morgans le Fay?) etc.
are not. They began as characters in 8th and 9th Century Welsh stories
and poems, and grew from there.

Best
Ian
jojo
2005-06-24 20:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Weir
Post by jojo
Hi,
Although I over 40, I'm new to the Arthurian legends. I've always heard of
them, but never read.
I am currently reading the series by Mary Stewart.
A question I have is maybe complicated.
That is the question of reality vs. fantasy. Mary Stewart clearly states her
work is a work of fiction,
but I understand there is a great deal of conflict as to whether Arthur was
real or not.
Can anyone direct me to a site that better explains this?
Is it just Arthur, or are all of these peoples existence in question?
Hi, Jojo--
Welcome aboard. And no, there is no conflict at all as to the
historicity of Arthur. All right-thinking persons are unanimously
agreed that Arthur was legendary, a fictional construct who
subsequently crossed over into supposed history. A few clamorous sorts
argue the opposite, but they are motivated by sheer wickedness and
should not be listened to. No, really. Trust me.
It's been years and years since I read Mary Stewart, so I'm dredging up
vague and foggy memories of the "others" you refer to. Certainly
figures like Ambrosius Aurealanis (whom I just misspelled, didn't I?)
and Vortigern are historical. But figures associated with Arthur's
court -- the Merlins, Viviens, Morgan le Fays (Morgans le Fay?) etc.
are not. They began as characters in 8th and 9th Century Welsh stories
and poems, and grew from there.
Best
Ian
Thanks for the welcome.
I'm not sure who was real and who was not.
I love the Mary Stewart version. Can't wait to finish it.

Thanks,
jojo
solitaire
2005-06-25 06:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Weir
Post by jojo
Hi,
Although I over 40, I'm new to the Arthurian legends. I've always heard of
them, but never read.
I am currently reading the series by Mary Stewart.
A question I have is maybe complicated.
That is the question of reality vs. fantasy. Mary Stewart clearly states her
work is a work of fiction,
but I understand there is a great deal of conflict as to whether Arthur was
real or not.
Can anyone direct me to a site that better explains this?
Is it just Arthur, or are all of these peoples existence in question?
Hi, Jojo--
Welcome aboard. And no, there is no conflict at all as to the
historicity of Arthur. All right-thinking persons are unanimously
agreed that Arthur was legendary, a fictional construct who
subsequently crossed over into supposed history.
You are an absolute moron, and a fuckwit. Do _not_ attempt to pass yourself off
as an expert on Arthur, asshole.
xargon
2005-06-26 07:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by solitaire
You are an absolute moron, and a fuckwit. Do _not_ attempt to pass yourself off
as an expert on Arthur, asshole.
Hi Jojo,

You've met the newsgroup troll. Your introduction is now complete.
jojo
2005-06-27 12:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by xargon
Post by solitaire
You are an absolute moron, and a fuckwit. Do _not_ attempt to pass yourself off
as an expert on Arthur, asshole.
Hi Jojo,
You've met the newsgroup troll. Your introduction is now complete.
I know their were "hill people", but not trolls.
Funny, how something that is pure fantasy (trolls) becomes reality in the
computer age.
a cross we must bear.
sigh.
jojo
John W. Kennedy
2005-06-24 18:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by jojo
Hi,
Although I over 40, I'm new to the Arthurian legends. I've always heard of
them, but never read.
I am currently reading the series by Mary Stewart.
A question I have is maybe complicated.
That is the question of reality vs. fantasy. Mary Stewart clearly states her
work is a work of fiction,
but I understand there is a great deal of conflict as to whether Arthur was
real or not.
Can anyone direct me to a site that better explains this?
Is it just Arthur, or are all of these peoples existence in question?
The question is a difficult one. We have virtually no written history
for Britain in this time period, and Continental writers rarely care to
mention Britain. There is some evidence that A) something drove off the
first wave of Saxon invaders, and B) someone named "Arthur" was a
celebrated hero. But it is only several centuries later that we can find
a document in which A and B are linked.

The other characters are even less certain.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have
always objected to being governed at all."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Man Who Was Thursday"
jojo
2005-06-24 20:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John W. Kennedy
Post by jojo
Hi,
Although I over 40, I'm new to the Arthurian legends. I've always heard of
them, but never read.
I am currently reading the series by Mary Stewart.
A question I have is maybe complicated.
That is the question of reality vs. fantasy. Mary Stewart clearly states her
work is a work of fiction,
but I understand there is a great deal of conflict as to whether Arthur was
real or not.
Can anyone direct me to a site that better explains this?
Is it just Arthur, or are all of these peoples existence in question?
The question is a difficult one. We have virtually no written history
for Britain in this time period, and Continental writers rarely care to
mention Britain. There is some evidence that A) something drove off the
first wave of Saxon invaders, and B) someone named "Arthur" was a
celebrated hero. But it is only several centuries later that we can find
a document in which A and B are linked.
The other characters are even less certain.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have
always objected to being governed at all."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Man Who Was Thursday"
Thanks,
jojo
Malcolm Martin
2005-06-30 23:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jojo

Sorry for the delay in responding to your post, due to a holiday in sunny
climes (but frighteningly few Arthurian Remains).

Sorry also to see that, as a newbie, Ian Weir is pulling your leg about the
existence of the Historical Arthur.

I suppose it could be true that all right-thinking people dispute his
existence, but then you should not wish to be guided as to what the nature
of truth is by right-wingers. Indeed, just as the Historical Arthur would
have had a left, as well as a right, wing to his warband, so the otherside
of this matter cannot be left behind.

There are two or three separate, but inter-related, issues in looking at
this.

The first is 'what standard of proof do you want' to prove historicity? In
essence there are three possibilities (although I think someone here
suggested a fourth a little time back)

a) Balance of probabilities?

b) Clear and convincing evidence (as for US impeachment) is typically
defined as `that measure or degree of proof which will produce in the mind
of the trier of facts a firm belief or conviction as to the allegation
sought to be established. It is intermediate, being more than a mere
preponderance, but not to the extent of such certainty as is required
beyond a reasonable doubt as in criminal cases."

c) beyond reasonable doubt?

Ground (c) is, I suggest, not available to either side - for neither can
prove beyond reasonable doubt that Arthur is either historical or is
mythical.

Second is the question of what makes any Historical Personage "Arthur".
Thus, if he wins the Battle of Badon, rules Britain (including overlordship
of the Saxons?); has a significant personal retinue of mounted warriors;
dies in a internal battle with his nephew's/son's army; but is called Fred
(or Ambrosius) is he still the Historical Arthur?

Third is your take on the evidence - its dating; your views on the accuracy
of oral transmission; whether you think some or all of the later written
stories (eg Chretien) are based on, or reflect, previous historical
incidents or not; whether you think such later stories are correctly
ascribed to Arthur or have been moved from someone else - eg Charlemagne or
Riothamus - to Arthur; how the research done on myths ties in with the
stories about Arthur (eg unacknowleged prince as a boy rising from
obscurity to become the great leader/king; the sleeping king waiting to
return etc) and so forth and so forth.

Like you, I started from reading a single book - Bernard of Cornwell's
Excalibur; then his trilogy; then a trip to a specialist history bookshop.
8 years later, knowing more than I ever thought I would about early British
History (but not as much as I would now like to know), and having a most
enjoyable library to dip into, read, and research, on various (but not all)
aspects of the matter I would join with Ian in saying 'welcome' - except I
would welcome you to the reality of Arthur, the man who became a legend in
his own lifetime, rather than to a mytholgical figure who was subsequently
historicised by those who were mere mortals.

Enjoy.

Kind regards

Malcolm Martin
London, UK
KARane
2005-08-26 02:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Malcolm,

I know I am not the originator of this Post but I want to thank you for
giving this explanation or the Arthurian legend. I personally have been
hooked on the legends since I was 8 and my Grandfather used to share his
stories with us Grandkids. I majored in Fact and Fantasy in College and
being in my early 40s, I still can never seem to get enough of our Once and
Future King. lol I myself have had issues with explaining to my young niece
and nephew whether Arthur was really on not, personally I have that romantic
notion in my head of the perfect chivalric King but alas I know it is for
naught that I explain the legend to that that way. So, I do what you did and
put it in two categories and explain on when questioned. My Nephew is the
most inquisitive but then he has been as I was as a child..a lover of books
and stories, his love the most is the stories of the Titanic and ghosts.
When I am asked questions of this issue, I not the most brushed up on that
particular time frame tell him."It hit an iceberg and went down. fast!! And
that is all I know... other than Rose and Jack did NOT really exist." LOL He
laughs and rolls his eyes as I point to my library, where he proceeds to for
his unanswered question. I would rather him learn to research than to just
hand it to him.

Rane

www.scaryscreaming.com

======================================================================
Post by Malcolm Martin
Dear Jojo
Sorry for the delay in responding to your post, due to a holiday in sunny
climes (but frighteningly few Arthurian Remains).
Sorry also to see that, as a newbie, Ian Weir is pulling your leg about the
existence of the Historical Arthur.
I suppose it could be true that all right-thinking people dispute his
existence, but then you should not wish to be guided as to what the nature
of truth is by right-wingers. Indeed, just as the Historical Arthur would
have had a left, as well as a right, wing to his warband, so the otherside
of this matter cannot be left behind.
There are two or three separate, but inter-related, issues in looking at
this.
The first is 'what standard of proof do you want' to prove historicity? In
essence there are three possibilities (although I think someone here
suggested a fourth a little time back)
a) Balance of probabilities?
b) Clear and convincing evidence (as for US impeachment) is typically
defined as `that measure or degree of proof which will produce in the mind
of the trier of facts a firm belief or conviction as to the allegation
sought to be established. It is intermediate, being more than a mere
preponderance, but not to the extent of such certainty as is required
beyond a reasonable doubt as in criminal cases."
c) beyond reasonable doubt?
Ground (c) is, I suggest, not available to either side - for neither can
prove beyond reasonable doubt that Arthur is either historical or is
mythical.
Second is the question of what makes any Historical Personage "Arthur".
Thus, if he wins the Battle of Badon, rules Britain (including
overlordship
Post by Malcolm Martin
of the Saxons?); has a significant personal retinue of mounted warriors;
dies in a internal battle with his nephew's/son's army; but is called Fred
(or Ambrosius) is he still the Historical Arthur?
Third is your take on the evidence - its dating; your views on the accuracy
of oral transmission; whether you think some or all of the later written
stories (eg Chretien) are based on, or reflect, previous historical
incidents or not; whether you think such later stories are correctly
ascribed to Arthur or have been moved from someone else - eg Charlemagne or
Riothamus - to Arthur; how the research done on myths ties in with the
stories about Arthur (eg unacknowleged prince as a boy rising from
obscurity to become the great leader/king; the sleeping king waiting to
return etc) and so forth and so forth.
Like you, I started from reading a single book - Bernard of Cornwell's
Excalibur; then his trilogy; then a trip to a specialist history bookshop.
8 years later, knowing more than I ever thought I would about early British
History (but not as much as I would now like to know), and having a most
enjoyable library to dip into, read, and research, on various (but not all)
aspects of the matter I would join with Ian in saying 'welcome' - except I
would welcome you to the reality of Arthur, the man who became a legend in
his own lifetime, rather than to a mytholgical figure who was
subsequently
Post by Malcolm Martin
historicised by those who were mere mortals.
Enjoy.
Kind regards
Malcolm Martin
London, UK
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